Non-Diastatic Malt Source?

Colleen,

THanks!

Given that I've never made this particular dough before, I'm trying to make sure it has the right density. Would you add decrease the water equilavent to the amount of syrup added ( if the recipe calls for powder)?

General bread question: One recipe calls for special Hi-gluten (14%) flour. I have vital wheat gluten and King Arthur Bread flour. Any idea how I do the calculation to add the wheat gluten to approximate the high gluten flour?

Thanks again,
Deb

Below is an email our homebrew manager just sent me, he also tells me that we do stock "unhopped" malt syrup.

hope it helps some! BradW



I looked at some baking sites, brewing sites and the Muntons malting site.

Most of the baking references I saw referred to Dried Malt Extract.

Basically diastatic Dried Malt Extract or Liquid Malt Extract still has the enzymes that convert starches to sugars.

Non-diastiatc versions of these do not have these enzymes & are used simply as sweeteners.

The Muntons Light Dried Malt Extract we stock is non-diastatic, according to their web site.

I assume that the other varieties we stock: Extra Light, Amber, Dark & Wheat, are non-diastiatc as well. I have sent an email inquiry to Muntons to confirm this. I will let you know what they say.

As a backup plan, these enzymes are deactivated by high heat. The malt extract could be mixed with water & boiled to do this if needed.

Michael

Brad,

You are a doll for checking for me and getting the info. I'm a very regular customer ( I live just around the corner in Springhurst) so I shouldn't be surprised at the great service.

I didn't see the Malt powder- do you have it in stock? When I was there yesterday, the only Malt Syrup I saw came in huge cans for $11.99 a can. For each batch of bagels I only need 3 Tablespoons. Did I miss a smaller sized product? I'm not planning to start my own bagel business...

Thanks again!
Deb

Colleen,

THanks!

Given that I've never made this particular dough before, I'm trying to make sure it has the right density. Would you add decrease the water equilavent to the amount of syrup added ( if the recipe calls for powder)?

General bread question: One recipe calls for special Hi-gluten (14%) flour. I have vital wheat gluten and King Arthur Bread flour. Any idea how I do the calculation to add the wheat gluten to approximate the high gluten flour?

Thanks again,
Deb

You might have to decrease some water, but probably not exact equivalents as the malt is so heavy and sticky it doesn't behave like water.

For the vital wheat gluten, it's generally suggested that one add about a tsp of vital wheat gluten per cup of white flour, and a tsp and a half for wheat and rye and the like. If you were making bread, I'd caution you to be careful with the vital wheat gluten as it tends to toughen up a dough (and the resulting baked loaf) if you use too much. Sometimes folks who're just learning to make bread fall into the habit of using something like vital wheat gluten as a crutch because it's suggested as an additive that'll help with a better rise. But for bagels, and especially if you're without high-gluten flour, it might be exactly what you need. I'd start by using the tsp per cup. You'll have to subtract equal values of flour. When I was experimenting with it, I'd add the tsp to the cup and then scoop the rest of the flour in with it. Or if you're weighing the flour (you ARE weighing rather than scooping, yeah? ), add the gluten to the scale first, etc.

Also, I was going to forward the Cohen/Silverton recipe, but then remembered it's for a sourdough bagel and I don't know whether you want to go that route (and I'm thinking you don't have a sourdough culture anyway, yeah?), so, the Cohen recipe you found online, or the King Arthur's recipe will probably work better for you. If you do have a sourdough culture and want the recipe, lemme know. And let us know how it goes.

Yes, I do have my own culture- started from organic apples ( no yeast) this winter. ( Brian calls it my baby - I'm very proud of it ). But I think I'll stick to regular- non-sourdough bagels for now. But thanks so much for the offer.

Deb

Brad,

Based on your post, I went back today and found that Liquor Barn Springhurst did indeed have the malt I needed ( the name on the package threw me- I was looking for it to say "non-diastatic Malt Powder" on it like the product I'd seen on-line.)

Thanks so much for your help! I'm starting my first batch of bagels tonight and boiling/baking them for Sunday breakfast. Can't wait! ( can you tell I have cabin fever?... )

DEb

Not a problem at all. Let me know how it turns out! Brad

My first try at the bagels turned out surprisingly good: Chewy exterior with a nice, slightly yeasty, inside. They had a very crunchy crust upon removing from the oven, but that softened to the right chewiness after storing overnight in a ziplock bag. Inside texture needs a little more density - it certainly wasn't "bread-like" but a little less dense than a true NY/Chicago bagels. Flavor was good.

Next attempt will probably be this weekend- I'm going to try boiling just a little longer on some, and very briefly ( a la Cohen) for others. Also, I'm going to let them rest overnight in the refrig before cooking to see if that'll enhance the flavor .

Any suggestions on increasing the interior density just a tad?

Deb

My first try at the bagels turned out surprisingly good: Chewy exterior with a nice, slightly yeasty, inside. They had a very crunchy crust upon removing from the oven, but that softened to the right chewiness after storing overnight in a ziplock bag. Inside texture needs a little more density - it certainly wasn't "bread-like" but a little less dense than a true NY/Chicago bagels. Flavor was good.

Next attempt will probably be this weekend- I'm going to try boiling just a little longer on some, and very briefly ( a la Cohen) for others. Also, I'm going to let them rest overnight in the refrig before cooking to see if that'll enhance the flavor .

Any suggestions on increasing the interior density just a tad?

Deb

Cool. It's hard to know how to approach the density issue without knowing more about what exactly you did to get where you got. I suspect you should probably go ahead and get the high-gluten flour.... I think I remember you said you didn't have any. What was your process?

Coleen,

This is the recipe I used. I modified it two ways: 1) I used bread flour not High Gluten and added the vital gluten to the flour, and 2) I boiled them for 1 minute per side in water with the malt powder( timing was from another recipe).

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/RecipeDisplay?RID=312

Are you still thinking going with high gluten flour is the answer? If so, where would I get some around town besides Dawn in 50 lb bags ?

The bagel adventure continues....

DEb

Coleen,

This is the recipe I used. I modified it two ways: 1) I used bread flour not High Gluten and added the vital gluten to the flour, and 2) I boiled them for 1 minute per side in water with the malt powder( timing was from another recipe).

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/RecipeDisplay?RID=312

Are you still thinking going with high gluten flour is the answer? If so, where would I get some around town besides Dawn in 50 lb bags ?

The bagel adventure continues....

DEb

I do think that to get a true bagel you need high gluten flour. I don't have a clue where you can get it around town, but if you want to drive to Midway, they carry it at Weisenberger. Or you can order a 5 lb bag from King Arthur, their "Sir Lancelot" (14%). I'm not sure what percentage protein your own flour is, but the protein content can make a huge difference in the density of your final product.

So, the rest comes from basic factors such as liquid to flour ratio and then handling. Or anyway that's what I gather. I've never made bagels. I've only read a bunch of different sources, apparently very authoratitive sources, and I've worked a lot with different flours with varying percentages of protein (and also vital wheat gluten) and have handled bread til the cows come home and in so many different ways to get the result I'm going after.

Peter Reinhart, who grew up on the East Coast in predominantly Jewish areas, knows bagels. So that's his point of reference. He also says there's probably nothing that will ever come close to what we all imagine is the perfect bagel, or the bagel of our earliest memory. You need to start with an overnight starter to develop the flavor (I can't encourage you enough to start there). And he also prefers a sourdough starter. And then the rest is putting the right things together (including the high gluten flour) in the perfect ratios, which has as much to do with feel as actual measurements (but which is also why flour should always be weighed, just to start).

If you want a dense crumb, the dough should be very dense, very stiff. Probably the stiffest dough you'll ever make. As Reinhart says, it should be "the stiffest dough in the kingdom." It can take very rough handling, and he also demonstrates the shaping of a bagel that he says contributes to that trademark bagel density. One method is like the one demonstrated in your own recipe, stretching here and there to get an even consistency, and another is rolling the dough into an 8-inch rope, wrapping it around your fist and then rocking the seam gently back and forth on your work surface to seal the ends.

Also, just looking at the yeast values in your recipe, that looks like a lot of yeast to me, and that will contribute to the density of the crumb as well. On the other hand, if you're using a short rise, rather than the overnight starter, that might be important. Still, it seems like an awful lot of yeast to me. Especially in instant form.... I think it was instant.

The final thing, he notes, for him anyway, is adding a tablespoon of baking powder to the boiling water to alkalize the water, replicating the traditional and professional practice of using a lye bath to boil the bagels. It won't affect the interior crumb, of course, but apparently it contributes fairly subtly to the gelatinization of the starches on the surface, adding to the caramelization of the crust.

Correction to above post. Reinhart's shaping: wrap around palm of hand, not fist.