Non-Diastatic Malt Source?

Can anybody suggest a place locally where I could get some? I have an on-line source but I'd much rather buy local.

I'm trying to make some "authentic NY bagels" from the recipe sent to me by King Arthur Flour co. Sounds promising: it's from a Vermont-based company ( so they know NY bagels), and they are all about baking and breads. The kneading is done in a bread machine ( even better), and they are both boiled and then baked like true NY bagels.

Man, I'd love to be able to have real, good bagels without having to drive to Skokie...

DEb

Well anymore it takes about as much time to get to Skokie from downtown Chicago as it does to get there from here. One of my favorite mediterranean restaurants is in Skokie. Or used to be. Dunno if it's still there.

I hate to answer a question by offering a thing you didn't ask for, but anyway.... You might try barley malt syrup instead. Maybe somebody like David Pierce or Roger Baylor could give you a source for that, or maybe one of them has some on hand you could buy.

It's what now-retired baker Izzy Cohen used at Nancy Silverton's bakery, and they're apparently authentic New York bagels (she discusses his approach, very purist, very scornful of 99% of what passes for a bagel today),... although in an on-line recipe from pbs with his name attached, he uses malt powder. Either will work. The recipe's in Silverton's bread book, with exceedingly strict instructions about how long to boil the bagels (20 seconds, and not the usual 2 minutes which he suggests will ruin a bagel).

Isn't malt powder, the same thing as Non-diastatic malt? Sounded like it from the wikipedia description. Any chance the recipe you referred to ( using malt powder) is on-line somewhere?

Thanks,
Deb

Found this recipe using the malt syrup ( but only in the water), while searching for The Izzy Cohen one. I'm guessing I can get the malt syrup at Liquor barn or the beer/wine wine making store near me. But I'm not sure I trust an Aussie and Nigella to give me a recipe for NY Bagels...

http://gggiraffe.blogspot.com/2008/06/bagels-boiling-and-baking.html

Found it:

Izzy Cohen's Water Bagel recipe

http://www.pbs.org/mpt/jewishcooking/recipes/season1/119r.html

( I LOVE search engines!)

Still not sure if malt powder is meant to be the Diastatic or Non- Diastatic type, though...

Deb

As a tinkering homebrewer who has no direct knowledge about the product you are looking for, I'll go out on a limb and say that I think the extract available to brewers would work. Diastatic power refers to the ability of the enzymes to convert starches in malt into sugars. By non-diastatic, I assume that means malt that has been raised to a temperature high enough to kill off any future enzymatic activity. I'm pretty sure that malt extract for brewing fits that criteria. Depending on what your recipe calls for, it is available in both liquid and dry forms. There are many choices available based on the variety of malt used in the process. It would be interesting to see what affects the different malts would have on the bagels. Would you prefer a pilsner based bagel, or an amber bagel? I would recommend checking out either liquor barn (springhurst store) or wine makers supply off westport road. One caution, some of the canned extracts have hops added to them. I don't think that is a flavor you would want in your bagel.

Isn't malt powder, the same thing as Non-diastatic malt? Sounded like it from the wikipedia description. Any chance the recipe you referred to ( using malt powder) is on-line somewhere?

Thanks,
Deb

Malt powder comes in two forms, diastatic and non-diastatic. The diastatic is strictly a sweetener, whereas the non-diastatic malt develops enzymes which digest starches into sugars and acts as a dough conditioner, contributing a somewhat sweet flavor and acts on the yeast to promote somewhat higher rises. Malt syrup (sometimes referred to as "barley" malt syrup) acts in the same way as the the non-diastatic malt powder.

I suspect it's more necessary for bagels because of the high-gluten flour, to provoke that higher rise.

What Ryan said.... Beat me to it.

Thanks, Ryan.

Interesting, so there are different malt syrups to make different beers? I had no idea. And you are right- hops is not the flavor I want in my bagel.

DEb

Edited the message above to mention the rise issue.... I'm trying to remember the type of malt syrup I bought a few years ago, something recommended specifically for high-gluten breads. I still have a big jar of it in the refrigerator, and so far as I know it lasts forever.

I've read too that honey will work similarly. It's not absolutely necessary to use the malt in bagels, but apparently it does promote a somewhat higher rise and also the slight sweetness. If I were making bagels, though, and experienced bagel bakers included it in their recipes, I'd want to find some and use it for sure. I got mine only after Silverton's continual suggestions that she used the stuff in her breads for the very reasons I've mentioned people use them for bagels, but after using it for awhile it was my considered opinion it added no value to my breads at all. I suspect it may be different for bagels.

Colleen,

Interestingly enough, my recipe for bagels calls for the malt powder for two things: in the dough to "enhance chewiness and flavor", and also some in the boiling water to make the bagels shine.

Struck out finding the powder at both Rainbow Blossom ( Springhurst) and Liquor Barn. Only Rainbow Blosson had the syrup ( and went there first so it would require another trip now). I'm hoping some other bakers have a local source suggestion....

Deb

Colleen,

Interestingly enough, my recipe for bagels calls for the malt powder for two things: in the dough to "enhance chewiness and flavor", and also some in the boiling water to make the bagels shine.

Struck out finding the powder at both Rainbow Blossom ( Springhurst) and Liquor Barn. Only Rainbow Blosson had the syrup ( and went there first so it would require another trip now). I'm hoping some other bakers have a local source suggestion....

Deb

Yes, some bread bakers like it because it's supposed to give a loaf a more sort of caramelized appearance (the shine you note) which also enhances the flavor of the crust. And the extra oomph from the rise would lend a more chewey texture.

If you come across the malt before the powder, just buy it. Silverton preferred the syrup for her own breads, and in the book, Cohen's bagel recipe calls for the syrup rather than the powder. I wondered whether he suggested the powder in the other one because he thought it might be easier for home bakers to buy. Silverton's bread book is for fairly advanced bakers, with a focus on sourdoughs with more fiddly recipes, usually with several days prep and rises, and calling for fresh yeast and a two-day rise in the bagels recipe, whereas the pbs recipe I suspect was geared to casual bakers.

Colleen,

Do you have both of the Izzy Cohen recipes so I can figure out the substitution quantity of malt syrup for powder? Like you said, since I've never made these before I'd like to start out as close to the original recipe from the Master as possible ( then fiddle from there....)

Deb

Colleen,

Do you have both of the Izzy Cohen recipes so I can figure out the substitution quantity of malt syrup for powder? Like you said, since I've never made these before I'd like to start out as close to the original recipe from the Master as possible ( then fiddle from there....)

Deb

The one Cohen recipe is the pbs recipe, same as the one you found, and the other I'll email you tomorrow. Substituting the various malts isn't a big deal, and most standard recipes (bread and bagels) call for roughly 2 tablespoons malt syrup per 6 cups flour, more or less.