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Matthew Landan

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Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Matthew Landan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:37 pm

This is the same John Mackie that has busted unions so it's not a big surprize that he is against a single-payer option or even the current set of proposals being debated in Congress. Considering his company is trading today for the same price it traded at 6 years ago I'm not so sure I consider him an expert at either medical insurance policies, employee happiness or how to sustainable run a business.

Read your opinions fro yourself and then ask yourself if this is the kind of guy you want to be enriching when you shop at his store.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html


Disclosure - I worked for Whole Foods twice (Chicago 1994-1995 quit to move to Oregon / Louisville 2005-2006 terminated for giving 40 days notice to quit).
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:44 pm

Matthew Crow wrote:This is the same John Mackie that has busted unions so it's not a big surprize that he is against a single-payer option or even the current set of proposals being debated in Congress. Considering his company is trading today for the same price it traded at 6 years ago I'm not so sure I consider him an expert at either medical insurance policies, employee happiness or how to sustainable run a business.

Read your opinions fro yourself and then ask yourself if this is the kind of guy you want to be enriching when you shop at his store.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html


Disclosure - I worked for Whole Foods twice (Chicago 1994-1995 quit to move to Oregon / Louisville 2005-2006 terminated for giving 40 days notice to quit).


Im not a big fan of Whole Foods but his plan has almost the same elements Ive been pushing for (plus a few more):

1. Ending the employer provided health care tax benefit
2. Encouraging HSAs
3. Allowing interstate health care purchasing

I would go further than him on #1. I would end the employer tax benefit, period. Company purchased health care would be a taxable benefit on your w2. However, I would then make 100% (up to the limit) of individually purchased HSA plans tax deductible. Hence #2.

Some of the rest of his points are a mixed bag, some good, some bad, some okay. But he hits the key elements that need to be handled.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Matthew Landan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:53 pm

Notice the number one point he makes - high premium plans.

Living under a high premium plan means no regular doctor visits because you have a $2,500 premium = health care shouldn't only be for the catastrophic emergency - it also should be for check-ups and preventative care. I should not have to debate if I should spend my 1500$ personal wellness monies to get a flu shot or take my son to the pediatrician or get a massage or new glasses. What if I need all four? What he doesn't mention is the $2500 premium he says works so great is about = to one months take home pay if you work for him as a grunt in one of his stores. On that scale can you afford it? Under the John Mackey doctrine I see no relief for the unemployed, the underemployeed, and everyone who works for themselves. His prescription is not comprehensive reform, it's just another band aid. It does not adress the out of control profeteering of the insurance industry or create a system like non-profit co-ops to compete with the health giants of America in order to keep premiums and costs down. It does not address the denial of service attacks on average Americans because of preexisting conditions or sudden sickness (back researching for a reason to drop you).

John Mackey is a glib salesman and he has some high carbon miles produce he wants to sell you too.
Last edited by Matthew Landan on Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Since I came down from Oregon, there's a lesson or two I've learned
Oh, oh the Pride of Cucamonga, of, of silver apples in the sun,
Yes, it's me, I'm the Pride of Cucamonga, I can see golden forests in the sun.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve R » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:00 pm

Matthew Crow wrote:John Mackey is a glib salesman and he has some high carbon miles produce he wants to sell you too.

Amen Brother! :lol:
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Robin Garr » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:05 pm

Mackey doesn't have much common sense. His natural market is progressive/liberal consumers, yet he started to drive a lot of us away with his union policies, which turned me personally from a regular to an occasional customer. This is likely to go the rest of the way toward keeping me out of his stores completely. I don't think I'm alone.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by carla griffin » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:17 pm

I will be holding the exit door for Robin as we BOTH leave. And I loved shopping at WF. But, I'm sure Fresh Market or Rainbow Blossom won't mind my money.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:21 pm

Matthew Crow wrote:Notice the number one point he makes - high premium plans.

Living under a high premium plan means no regular doctor visits because you have a $2,500 premium = health care shouldn't only be for the catastrophic emergency - it also should be for check-ups and preventative care.


We arent talking about health care. We are talking about insurance. The purpose of insurance is risk management. It should be a rare event when anything done at a PCP is actually covered by insurance.

I get oil changes for my car even though they arent covered by insurance.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:30 pm

Matthew Crow wrote: I should not have to debate if I should spend my 1500$ personal wellness monies to get a flu shot or take my son to the pediatrician or get a massage or new glasses. What if I need all four? What he doesn't mention is the $2500 premium he says works so great is about = to one months take home pay if you work for him as a grunt in one of his stores. On that scale can you afford it? Under the John Mackey doctrine I see no relief for the unemployed, the underemployeed, and everyone who worlds for themselves. His prescription is not comprehensive reform, it's just another band aid. It does not adress the out of control profeteering of the insurance industry or create a system like non-profit co-ops to compete with the health giants of America in order to keep premiums and costs down. It does not address the denial of service attacks on average Americans because of preexisting conditions or sudden sickness (back researching for a reason to drop you).

John Mackey is a glib salesman and he has some high carbon miles produce he wants to sell you too.


If you need all 4, you pay cash out of pocket. Although, it shouldnt cost anywhere near $1500 to get a flu shot, a pediatrician visit, a massage and new glasses.

$2500 isnt the PREMIUM, it is the annual deductible. The premium will be much cheaper than low deductible policies. My company had considered changing to an HSA and the insurance premium for the high deductible policy is MUCH cheaper than we are paying now. I think we could put about $150 into everyones HSA account each month after buying the policy. If, like me, you go to the doctor about once every 15 years (although I turn 40 tomorrow, so I guess I probably need to schedule an appointment), $150 a month would build up into some big amounts.

Which, what do you know, would help out a hell of a lot if I was unemployed or underemployed. If the plan wasnt tied to employment and had a cheap hi-D policy with cash building up, you can afford health care during the down times.

As far as pre-existing conditions, see the article on the WSJ site today regarding term health insurance. There is no reason there couldnt be term health insurance like there is term life insurance. You know the cost of your insurance for the length of the term (the longer the term, the higher it is gonna be), but no change in conditions will cause it to go away.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Matthew Landan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:12 pm

Rob Coffey wrote:If you need all 4, you pay cash out of pocket. Although, it shouldnt cost anywhere near $1500 to get a flu shot, a pediatrician visit, a massage and new glasses.


So ok now lets extrapolate out: take the example that I have 2 kids and a wife. Each kid needs new glasses plus two pediatrician visits a year plus dentist visits. My wife needs a check up and so do I. We all need flu shots against N1H1 and I still need new glasses.

Pay out of pocket? Again if both me and my wife work for Whole Foods at $10 an hour... with 800$ a year in health savings account benefits... Or maybe just let the kids go and I'll not get the flu shot or the glasses.


$2500 isnt the PREMIUM, it is the annual deductible. The premium will be much cheaper than low deductible policies. My company had considered changing to an HSA and the insurance premium for the high deductible policy is MUCH cheaper than we are paying now. I think we could put about $150 into everyones HSA account each month after buying the policy. If, like me, you go to the doctor about once every 15 years (although I turn 40 tomorrow, so I guess I probably need to schedule an appointment), $150 a month would build up into some big amounts.


The plan when I worked for Whole Foods was if you invoked your health insurance there was a significant premium. This discouraged the use of the insurance for normal every-day care or check ups and turned the policy into a kind of catastrophic policy. "Our team members therefore spend their own health-care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in," John Mackey. It was great if you were hit by a car and needed 40,000$ in reconstructive surgery and hospital time, but if you just needed a check up you only option was out of pocket or the HSA dollars. What if you got sick three times in a year? This leads back to the above argument - sometimes things spiral out of control and people need more than just 800-1800$ a year in HSA monies to cover just the basics. On an average income of 25,000$ a year there isn't much left over for out of pocket medical expenses after paying for all the other basic necessities of life.

Which, what do you know, would help out a hell of a lot if I was unemployed or underemployed. If the plan wasnt tied to employment and had a cheap hi-D policy with cash building up, you can afford health care during the down times.


I believe one of the reforms being debated in Congress is to decouple health insurance from employment so when you leave your job or are fired you can continue to carry your policy.

As far as pre-existing conditions, see the article on the WSJ site today regarding term health insurance. There is no reason there couldnt be term health insurance like there is term life insurance. You know the cost of your insurance for the length of the term (the longer the term, the higher it is gonna be), but no change in conditions will cause it to go away.


I will read it.

My fundamental agruments against this kind of 'reform' stand. This will not bring the 47 million americans currently not covered into the system, nor will it drive down costs. The insurers still have an incentive to make otherworldly profits and there is no check on them as would be provided by a public option or the non-profit co-ops.

In the best of all possible worlds Mackey's prescription for health insurance reform might be a half step forward but this is the real world and it would barely change the status quo. his poolitics and policies are written clearly and for all to see. His motivations are still the same as they were yesterday: make as much money as he can for himself and the rest of the shareholders. Employees are not shareholders, they are at-will employees. They are only shareholders in America. That's why we need government to reform the health insurance industry. We are all stakeholders in our community and our country.
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Since I came down from Oregon, there's a lesson or two I've learned
Oh, oh the Pride of Cucamonga, of, of silver apples in the sun,
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:35 pm

Matthew Crow wrote:
Rob Coffey wrote:If you need all 4, you pay cash out of pocket. Although, it shouldnt cost anywhere near $1500 to get a flu shot, a pediatrician visit, a massage and new glasses.


So ok now lets extrapolate out: take the example that I have 2 kids and a wife. Each kid needs new glasses plus two pediatrician visits a year plus dentist visits. My wife needs a check up and so do I. We all need flu shots against N1H1 and I still need new glasses.

Pay out of pocket? Again if both me and my wife work for Whole Foods at $10 an hour... with 800$ a year in health savings account benefits... Or maybe just let the kids go and I'll not get the flu shot or the glasses.


$2500 isnt the PREMIUM, it is the annual deductible. The premium will be much cheaper than low deductible policies. My company had considered changing to an HSA and the insurance premium for the high deductible policy is MUCH cheaper than we are paying now. I think we could put about $150 into everyones HSA account each month after buying the policy. If, like me, you go to the doctor about once every 15 years (although I turn 40 tomorrow, so I guess I probably need to schedule an appointment), $150 a month would build up into some big amounts.


The plan when I worked for Whole Foods was if you invoked your health insurance there was a significant premium. This discouraged the use of the insurance for normal every-day care or check ups and turned the policy into a kind of catastrophic policy. "Our team members therefore spend their own health-care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in," John Mackey. It was great if you were hit by a car and needed 40,000$ in reconstructive surgery and hospital time, but if you just needed a check up you only option was out of pocket or the HSA dollars. What if you got sick three times in a year? This leads back to the above argument - sometimes things spiral out of control and people need more than just 800-1800$ a year in HSA monies to cover just the basics. On an average income of 25,000$ a year there isn't much left over for out of pocket medical expenses after paying for all the other basic necessities of life..
[/quote]

Of course it is a catastrophic policy, that is what it is supposed to be. Hence the 2.5k deductible. Insurance is about risk management. Having a middle man for regular maintenance is a bad idea. I am going to spend a few bucks at my eye doctor every year (that is the only doctor I see regularly, I forgot about him when I said 15 years earlier). If that is paid for by insurance (which it is, in part), it is going to be built into my premium, plus some profit for the insurance company. Which is stupid. It would lower health care costs overall if everyone just paid their eye checkup themselves. This doesnt work for catastrophic events because you cant cover a $40k event easily. But that is ONLY what insurance should be for.

You should buy insurance to cover the events you wont be able to budget for. That is its purpose.

I cant speak for Mackey, but if my company didnt have to pay for health insurance, everyone would get a raise. Also $800-$1800 isnt the limit of HSA additions. The max you can add PER YEAR is higher than the deductible. And any that carries over builds up, with interest.

There is one thing you said that I snipped that was funny to me. On another site I regularly read, he was crucified for considering all "stakeholders" in his decisions instead of just "shareholders". He has been very public about the whole stakeholder thing. And then you say the opposite.
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Todd Antz » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:40 pm

All right, a subject more controversial than me buying Pepsi's at Kroger! Continue on please :)
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Marsha L.

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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Marsha L. » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:47 pm

Todd Antz wrote:All right, a subject more controversial than me buying Pepsi's at Kroger! Continue on please :)


giggle
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:52 pm

Todd Antz wrote:All right, a subject more controversial than me buying Pepsi's at Kroger! Continue on please :)


I still cant believe you bought Pepsi products. :D
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Marsha L. » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:55 pm

If it was Mt. Dew, I forgive you, Todd.

Sorry! Not trying to thread-jack.

I wish I could talk about health care, but I dare not. On the subject of Whole Foods, I guess it's cool that they hold the Top Chef shopping sprees there, but if I was a contestant, I'd wish for better sources (and prices).
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Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Rob Coffey » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:14 pm

Matthew Crow wrote:The insurers still have an incentive to make otherworldly profits and there is no check on them as would be provided by a public option or the non-profit co-ops.


There is nothing stopping non-profit co-ops now. They exist all over the place. Ending the interstate insurance ban would make the current ones more available. Plus, if you really want to go that route, just start one.
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