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Shawn Vest

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Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Shawn Vest » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:17 am

bicyclers, please don't take this the wrong way

but if want the respect that you deserve on the roadway, then you have to obey the traffic laws as well

sorry, but i have witnessed some of the most ridiculous biking behavior recently on Louisville's roadways

Tuesday evening about 6pm a group of bikers (10 or so) on Market Street between 3rd and Floyd were riding in the left lane and one wayward biker was riding in the second to left lane (so first of all you're taking up two lanes of traffic), no use of hand signals, and i saw two bikers move around a vehicle at a stop light in order to get in front of it

In the highlands last week i was passed by a biker on the right while attempting to make a right hand turn (yes, my signal was on)

Many times at a stop light a biker will ride past the traffic until they reach the stop light instead of stopping with traffic

A rolling stop at a traffic light is not obeying the rules of the road

i'm deeply sorry that we do not have dedicated bike lanes through out Louisville

The respect of the roadway travelers must be mutual

i don't mind slowing down or giving you the space you need to ride, but i expect the same

and please for the sake of all that is good in this world, can we stop with the spandex - please

- ride safe everyone

thanks for allowing a small rant
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TP Lowe

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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by TP Lowe » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm

I have biked thousands of miles in the city over recent years, and have observed more careless and dangerous activity from motor vehicles than I can recount. A biker isn't going to kill anyone, and you may feel inconvenienced, but that is hardly reason for a "rant." I find it especially offensive that you decide to write this missive on the heels of public outrage over the death of a citizen on a bike, and have the nerve to include some silly reference to spandex. Pitiful.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Josh A » Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:14 pm

A biker breaking the laws/rules of the road/what have you is going to place themselves at greater risk than one who doesn't. Same as with people driving automobiles. The only difference is the amount of possible damage.

I get to watch people on bikes blow through four way stops most mornings on my way in to work. I'm just glad it's only a couple of blocks to the hospital, because someone is going to end up getting hit.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Hank Sutton » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:18 am

I ride a bicycle sometimes (no spandex!) and drive a car frequently so both sides of this issue are appreciated.

Metro Police Chief Robert White has several 15 second videos dealing with laws and sharing the road with bikes and cars.
I have seen these messages on TV a few times and they can be viewed at the following website.
Bicycle collision reports, safety videos, maps and more:
http://www.louisvilleky.gov/BikeLouisville/

Ghost bike:
http://fatlip.leoweekly.com/2008/10/03/ghost-bike/
http://www.leoweekly.com/editors-note/a ... ghost-bike
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Heather L » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:47 am

I don't think his "rant" was based on inconvenience! He is talking about situations that put people in danger! It is a safety issue....
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Robin Garr » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:13 am

TP, I take your point, but knowing Shawn as the decent man he is, I don't believe he meant his rant the way you took it.

I haven't ridden a bike for a long time ... this graying baby boomer prefers having at least four wheels under his aging bones. :) But as a driver, I'm acutely conscious of the growing number of bicyclists out there these days. I respect them and am willing to share the road. But I've been scared to death, quite a number of times, by bikers who can only fairly be described as making stupid moves that require me to take quick responsive action so as not to injure or kill them.

Call me over-sensitive, but I don't want to injure or kill anybody even if it's entirely their fault. I know YOU don't bike like that, and I am certain that Shawn agrees that safe bikers deserve their share of the road. But Spandex references aside (and I'll admit it made me laugh), I think Shawn makes a good point and his subject line expresses it: Bikers need to obey the laws as well; and for them it's not just a matter of avoiding a ticket, it's a matter of saving their lives.

TP Lowe wrote:I have biked thousands of miles in the city over recent years, and have observed more careless and dangerous activity from motor vehicles than I can recount. A biker isn't going to kill anyone, and you may feel inconvenienced, but that is hardly reason for a "rant." I find it especially offensive that you decide to write this missive on the heels of public outrage over the death of a citizen on a bike, and have the nerve to include some silly reference to spandex. Pitiful.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Shawn Vest » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:15 pm

thanks Robin and Heather, thats exactly how the post was meant
it is a total safety issue, i've been inconvenienced by bikers quite often, that doesn't bother me
i just don't want to run one over because they're being careless

thanks
shawn
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by TP Lowe » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:30 pm

In light of another death on Tuesday in New Albany (the 14 year old biker killed), I think the spandex comment set me off. Biking and cars are don't induce a lot of humor these days.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Shawn Vest » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:39 pm

Spandex do induce a lot of humor though,
i mean, would it kill you to put a pair of gym shorts over the spandex,
so the whole world isn't subject to viewing every nook and cranny the spandex creeps into

If you're a professional and there is a real need to reduce drag, etc - fine
otherwise it is just terrible fashion that subjects others to viewing parts of your body we never wanted to see

just my skewed point of view though

shawn

i think that the biking safety issue is a very serious topic,

but it seems to me that if bikers and drivers obey the same laws and have a mutual respect for each other's space,
it will be safer for everyone using the roadways
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Bill R » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:22 pm

Some of my projects with Metro Govt. involve bike lane construction, and i have had a fair amount of interaction with bikers lately. And I am finding (generally) that problem bikers tend to be those in the 20-30 age range. This group seems to be the bikers blowing thru 4 way stops, passing traffic stopped at lights,etc.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by carla griffin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:50 am

I'm with Shawn on this one 100%. If the bike is going to be on the road it needs to obey the same rules of the road. Driving in downtown Louisville is a nightmare enough with pedestrians jaywalking out in front of your car , not paying attention to anything but their ipod. Yesterday morning a biker in full pro attire was riding on 4th street against traffic in the right hand lane at rush hour. Another refused to stop at a traffic light along with the rest of the traffic, instead opted to swerve up onto the sidewalk almost hitting a walker so he could cross at the crosswalk. Bone headed things and I'm sure, things that most bikers would never dream of doing and yet...
I welcome bikers onto the road but the same traffic laws must be obeyed and everyone must be held accountable for their own actions when laws are not obeyed.
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Shawn Vest

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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Shawn Vest » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:51 am

thanks Carla

downtown and the highlands seem to be worse than other areas of the metro
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Nancy Nelson

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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Nancy Nelson » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:34 pm

Not only all of the above, but I'm wondering if it is ok for bikers to be in the middle of the lane, slowing traffic down to way below the speed limit,while the person behind you is honking his horn incessantly ,because you are going waaaay below the speed limit on a weekday morning?
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Matthew D » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:54 pm

Nancy Nelson wrote:Not only all of the above, but I'm wondering if it is ok for bikers to be in the middle of the lane, slowing traffic down to way below the speed limit,while the person behind you is honking his horn incessantly ,because you are going waaaay below the speed limit on a weekday morning?


Slow day at school, so I've been venturing into areas of this website I've never wandered into before. And then I stumble across my favorite talking point. Apologies if I'm digging something out of the trash pile...

To answer your "wonder" - We should only think it is not "OK" if we are working from the idea that roads are made for cars and cyclists only get in the way. Cyclists have an absolute right to use the road - maybe even more so than drivers (as only drivers have to be licensed).

I would agree that a cyclist should not be in the middle of the lane if there is only a single lane going in that direction. The cyclist should stay as far right as possible (but not so far right as they might get "doored"), and all passing vehicles should give three feet when passing. If there is not space for all of this, the cyclist should have the power to "take the lane" (although this varies by jurisdiction).

The fact that the person is honking should have nothing to do with the situation. The driver should respect the cyclist as a driver of a road vehicle (although not motorized)and not use honking as a sign of disrespect that characterizes the cyclists as the "other."

Now, this is where I'm going to become unpopular. The argument that cyclists should "obey the rules of the road" is flawed. Such laws are made for motor vehicles and then applied to cyclists. In other words, these laws privilege cars and those tendencies common to cars. Although I don't run all red lights (some are far too dangerous), I will run a light which is safe to run NOT because I feel privileged (oh look at me, I'm on a bike and can do whatever I want) but because I am in a much safer situation whenever I am moving and not standing still. Whereas a careless fender bender at a red light is mostly inconsequential when it involves 2 cars, it can be a matter of life-and-death when it involves a cyclist. Now I will never endanger other drivers by running a light, but I also don't sit at a light because "it's the law." The law is written in such a way that it puts me at danger, and, therefore, I choose to disobey this law. If the law would acknowledge that cars and bicycles are inherently different, laws could be written that would benefit all involved.

The "honking" driver is just another example of a situation where the law makes no sense, but the cyclists is nonetheless viewed at being in the wrong. The cyclist is supposed to ride as far right as possible, but not so far right as to interfere with those opening doors on parked cars. Passing vehicles are always supposed to give three feet to the cyclists. So we have parked car --> 3 feet --> cyclist --> 3 feet --> car --> lane line. That, my friends, is just impossible math based on the standard width of a road lane.

The nature of the "bike/vehicle/road" argument needs to change. The "cyclists need to follow the laws too" argument overlooks the very nature of the laws. The "cyclists can do whatever they want" approach is nonsense, and, as the OP stated, puts way too many people at risk. Unfortunately, most jurisdictions are forced to band-aid the issue with half-fitting laws because to really address the issue would require substantial changes in how we view transportation, how we define transportation law, etc.

One final note, vehicle drivers are supposed to be aware of all rules of the road, including those involving bicycles. Bicyclists have a right to use the roads too. Now, they don't have a right to break the laws. That's a personal decision I make, as I defended above. I'll also accept due punishment as the law is currently written, if that becomes an issue.

And that, finally, is the end of my rant. Back to work.

P.S. I'm 26, so I fall in that troublemaker bike age category. You know, full disclosure.
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Re: Bikers must obey the laws as well

by Bill Veneman » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:43 pm

From my bike riding days MANY MANY years ago, I recall what the the Anchorage cop told me when he pulled me over after I ran the red flashing light at Evergreen and Woodland......"Boy, you're gonna get yourself killed doing $@!) like that...." And proceeded to give me a $25 ticket. From then on, if it was red, flashing, sign, light....whatever......I stopped.
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