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Nortons Commons

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carla griffin

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Nortons Commons

by carla griffin » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:56 am

After reading the thread in the Louisville Restaurants forum about NC and Karems I thought I would bring my question here to the All About Louisville page.
I'm all for the "idea" that NC is trying to reproduce and agree with RG that it's a bit like Epcot. My question is ..."Will it work?"

Most of the distinct neighborhoods that established themselves over 100 years ago, whether here in Louisville or almost any other city, came into existence because of a commonality. Usually ethnic...Irish, Italian, German. Some times because of a common employer..Fischer meats. Sometimes a common place of worship. So I'm wondering what the commonality is for the residents of NC and is the development growing as that sort of community? They seem so far removed from everything else. Perhaps THAT'S the commonality. So are they successfully, if artificially, reproducing a neighborhood?

Nothing judgemental. I was just wondering.
Carla
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by Jeremy Mott » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:16 pm

First off it will be interesting how many people will discuss this at length, being as it is "off" the restaurant forum. If discussed, it will also be interesting to see whether or not it remains civil. :roll:

As Robert often points out, a lot of what went in to making up "the good old days" is--for whatever reason--gone today. You mention a commonality or community bond as impetus for neighborhood establishments 100 years ago. Well (with some exceptions), you just don't see ethnic communities forming in 2007. At the very least, not like they did in the 20's. Arguably, on the basis of diversity, you probably wouldn't want to see modern ethic enclaves spring up. Communities aren't going to spring up around a common employer either due to the predominance of the service industry, telecommunting, etc, etc. But think the lack of distinct, cohesive neighborhoods is due--in no small part--to the prevalence of and our (over?)reliance on cars. Like you, not being judgemental here in the least as I am very much car-reliant.

So, will NC work? Is commonality a prerequisite for community? Does NC have any commonality?

NC might work. Might work as intended. Might successfully grow/adapt and work, albeit not as intended. Might not work at all. :?: Though I personally would rather see more historic preservation and rehabilitation of existing neighborhoods (closer to the urban core), I realize that notion is not everyone's cup of tea, and that's okay. I prefer the whole New Urbanism thing to the alternative (subdivisions of McMansions). I understand that some people like the "look and feel" of traditional development, but little else associated with established 'hoods. This is okay and the lesser of two evils (the other being huge yards, huge driveways, single use, etc).

No denying that most successful, established neighborhoods are built around some commonality, but I think it's worth mentioning that Louisville areas such as Old Louisville, the Highlands, Germantown, Irish Hill, Butchertown, etc no longer have the commonality they were built on. Sure many people living in these areas are like-minded, but they're no longer all German or meatpackers. Norton Commoners probably, more-or-less, share some sort of like-mindedness but are not coming together around some commonality. Especially ironic being as "Commons" is in the name. Not sure whether that will help or hurt them.

Whew, feel like I used a lot of words, but didn't say much. In short, while it's not anywhere close to my ideal, I wish NC the best. If rampant exurban development is going to take place regardless, this is the best kind.

Now watch as this denigrates to discussions of Wal-Mart, chains, Louisville: North, South, or Midwestern, etc, etc. :lol:
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robert szappanos

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by robert szappanos » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:36 pm

:lol: So far so good..........Alls quiet on the western front.....I mean eastern.... :lol:
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Doogy R

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by Doogy R » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:14 pm

I predict it'll be a roaring success. EOM.
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by robert szappanos » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:32 pm

:D I think so too :D
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Leah S

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by Leah S » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:37 pm

As a committed zoning geek, I truly wish NC the best. I've visited it and was drawn in, exclaiming, "look they even have alleys!" Then I remembered, oh live I live in Old Louisville, one of the neighborhoods they're emulating. I think NC will work, because it harkens toward a romanticized time that's mostly lost. I think its a lot like Epcot in a way--manufactured to give people a safe experience, that's somewhat realistic. At least in looks. Anyway, Norton Commons is beautiful and I agree, if development has to happen (and of course it does) this is the development model I'd like to see more of.
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by Doogy R » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:58 pm

Leah s wrote:I think its a lot like Epcot in a way--manufactured to give people a safe experience, that's somewhat realistic.


I think giving people a safe place to live is wonderful. Look at some areas of the Ville, no way could you feel safe. I've even seen posts on the new and old boards about parts of Old Louisville being unsafe. It's not just an experience they're building over there, but a way to live. We all have our own opinions and preferences. Please let's not damn someone whose ideas and ideals don't conform to ours. By the way Leah, this wasn't aimed at you.
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Re: Nortons Commons

by Robin Garr » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:47 am

carla griffin wrote: I'm all for the "idea" that NC is trying to reproduce and agree with RG that it's a bit like Epcot. My question is ..."Will it work?"


Tough call, Carla. I really do feel two ways about it. I like the principle of it. I absolutely like it more than I like the more customary "tract mansion." And frankly, I hope it does work.

All that being said, I personally find the cleaned-up, upscale, protected, environment just a little creepy, and the Epcot analogy really did just pop into my head. Maybe my perceptions are even a little more warped because I've been in Italy for almost two weeks as I write this, but I feel the same way about Italy as I do about Crescent Hill: I just don't quite understand the point in developing a protected suburban enclave and making it look like an old-fashioned city neighborhood when we have some really excellent "real" urban neighborhoods in our town already, and they're thriving.

NC is supposed to be economically diverse, but can anyone tell me honestly that there's not a significant income barrier to entry, even in its multi-family housing (assuming that it has some). Will the demographic makeup of NC upon its completion resemble that in the urban center?

I'd like to see this topic remain positive, too, but it's certainly fair for it to be positive and probing.
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Nortons Commons

by Pam G » Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:18 am

I really like the idea of Nortons Commons. And I don't understand the comments that it is Epcot like or a cleaned up version of an urban area. Maybe it look like this because it is new and does not have 100+ years of wear and tear. Not everyone can live in the Highlands, Cresent Hill, Clifton or Old Louisville, there is not enough room. So some of us have to live in the suburbs. I love those areas, but have choosen to live in the suburbs.

Check out this place in Colorado. http://www.prospectnewtown.com I have seen this planned neighborhood a few years ago. And I though it was awsome. And I couldn't wait for Nortons Commons to start. I hope that NC is as successful as Prospect New Town has become.
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by Jeremy Mott » Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:37 am

Point taken about not everybody being able to live in established, old urban neighborhoods for variety of reasons (you mention sometimes just not enough room). As Robin mentions, we currently have thriving "real" urban neighborhoods. I think so long as money is spent and the thriving in NC and urban 'hoods continues at a more-or-less equal rate, it's a win-win. It's not a zero-sum game and so long as NC doesn't cannibalize from my neighborhood, I'm cool with it.

Maybe it look like this because it is new and does not have 100+ years of wear and tear.


I'd venture to say that NC won't experience 100+ years of wear and tear. Be it the masses moving on to the next best thing or the simple fact that they may/may not be "built like they used to". I doubt somebody will be rehabbing a historic "historic" home in NC in 2080.
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by Pam G » Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:47 am

I would love to live in Cresent Hill, Butchertown or the Highlands (again) and restore a home. But there is just no way that my husband would ever move to one of those areas. He grew up in a rural area and wants a large yard.

With restoration of older and now midcentury homes, bringing them back to their original states. I wonder if 50-75 years from now, someone will restore my mid 70's tri-level back to the original style. Adding back foil wallpaper, shag carpet and harvest gold appliances.
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by Leah S » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:01 pm

My ultimate hope is that a few peple who choose NC will learn to love living in close proximity to their neighbors, use alleyways, enjoy the convenience of a live/work urban style neighborhood. And then move into the real historic thing. Ehh, probably a pipe dream.

I'm probably more excited about all the condo development in the downtown area. That is bringing more people into the urban core, and maybe, just maybe when they need more room than their condo offers, they'll look into the historic suburbs--Old Louisville, Clifton, Crescent Hill and both Highlands.

After all Old Louisville was this city's first suburb. All the way at the end of the (then) trolley line, in what was considered at that time, the "country."
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by Jeremy Mott » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:05 pm

Adding back foil wallpaper, shag carpet and harvest gold appliances.

Scary thought! :shock:

After all Old Louisville was this city's first suburb. All the way at the end of the (then) trolley line, in what was considered at that time, the "country."

Very true. And so long as developments such as NC have well-constructed and well-planned housing stock and industry, I really have no major problems with 'em. However, convoys of single occupant cars and SUVs aren't as benign as trolleys. :roll:
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by Heather Y » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:20 pm

I am sure that Karem's has a loyal following, and there will be other restaurants in NC. Do you think that people will come from all parts of Louisville to dine at these establishments?

If so, would it be considered an "infiltration" by the NC residents.

Not to be judgemental, smart alecky, or anything, but a friend of mine asked me if I thought that the NC residents were going to "grow their own food". I just chuckled.

Sorry.

P.S I love the way the "Mercantile" condos are looking. I am not sure about living across from the ball park, but that is seasonal anyway!

I said many, many years ago that they need to start taking the buildings downtown and create lofts and condos. I think all the builders were still busy using up all the land in Lou. for subdivisions. Now they are moving on to straight up. Took long enough. But they are outrageously priced for Louisville, it's not Manhattan, or Chicago!
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by carla griffin » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:07 am

I too hope NC works; there's obviously a great deal of time, money and planning put into it and it's quite pretty. I also like the way the architects have strayed away from the usual multiple, shallow gabled, faux creek-rock facades that have been so popular here for far too long. I was just wondering if the human, social element can be reproduced.

I don't know how much the NC condos cost but when I looked the houses started at around 3 hundred G's. At that price it will eliminate many families and singles from being able to live there. (No argument that this is true for many subdivisions or developments that are out there.) So where will the labour force come from to work at the jobs in the stores within NC? In other words, how many of Karems dishwashers, food servers and bartenders can afford to live in NC? It seems when your residents don't actually contribute to the growth and health of your area that you lose that 'community' feel. You can argue that the NC residents contribute to its own growth and health by financially supporting the shops and stores found within but in my opinion it doesn't register the same sort of 'ownership' that working, worshipping or schooling your children in your community does.

Again let me stress I'm not saying this is right or wrong or the way everyone should live; this is merely an outside observation that it takes a great deal more than a bunch of people who want to live in an old Louisville style home in the suburbs to recreate what a true community is.
(Apologises for the numerous run-on sentances.)
Carla
There is one thing more exasperating than a wife who can cook and won't, and that's a wife who can't cook and will. ~Robert Frost
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