Off-topic discussions about regional news, issues and politics. Pretty much everything goes here, but keep it polite: Flaming and spamming aren't welcome.
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Steve H

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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:29 pm

Robin Garr wrote:Steve, I can agree with the first three to some extent, although I would point out that Jim Crow laws merely institutionalized the existing public practice, which by modern standards was immoral and wrong. People weren't bigots because Jim Crow laws made them so; Jim Crow laws were written because the empowered minority espoused bigotry.

Did the Civil Rights acts banish racism? No they did not. The Federal Government finally decided to enforced the 14th Amendment, and abolished the Jim Crow laws. According to your perspective, southern society generally remained racist.

If this is true, and you and I agree that it was, then how did relations between the races improve since then? It's because southern culture was finally able to evolve naturally. Those people who were less inclined to be racist, could go about their business without threat of prosecution for crimes. This is how southern culture finally evolved. It took getting government out of the way to do it.

Segregation also depended on judges to substitute their will for the clear intent of Constitution to rule that Jim Crow laws were legal. Wouldn't it have been great had government not had that authority to criminalize social behavior? And it wouldn't have been great if judges didn't believe in a "living constitution"?

Robin Garr wrote:Your fourth point rests on the assumption that the federal government is broadly corrupt. I don't buy that, and I think the election of 2008 demonstrates that the majority will throw out a bad administration.
You forget about the vast number of bureaucrats who are basically unaccountable to no one.

Robin Garr wrote:What's happened since then is frightening, because a major political party has made common cause with a bizarre, extremist splinter group and gone rogue. I hope this won't last and that balance will be restored.
I thought for a minute you were talking about Democrats being in cahoots with the folks who are planning crater the US economy even further by raising the cost of fossil fuel, banning nuclear power, and implementing onerous environmental regulations with dubious scientific evidence.

Then I realized you were talking about the Republicans being in cahoots and the folks who want to reduce the size of government so that folks can be left alone.

Robin Garr wrote:I don't agree with number 6 at all. Government goes back to ancient Mesopotamia, and over the ages it has proven to be an effective, if sometimes rough, way for people to band together in communities and, yes, GOVERN themselves. It doesn't always work well - see above - but it has proven superior to anarchy.

I did not say, "no government". I agree that anarchy is not a sustainable system, even when it is backed by a coherent philosophy like anarcho-capitalism. The mistake of Communism is the assumption that humans are completely collective. The mistake of anarcho-capitalism is the assumption that humans are completely individualistic. I just want to move the needle away from our Socialist experiment, which I think is failing, and move it to a more libertarian arrangement. The Founders left us the framework and the tools to do it.

Robin Garr wrote:Finally, Jefferson didn't say that. Henry David Thoreau did, in Civil Disobedience.
I stand corrected.

Robin Garr wrote:Which, by the way, is one way for citizens with deeply ingrained differential beliefs to get themselves heard. At the risk of incarceration by the majority.
The more powerful the government, and the fewer balancing structures, either other branches of government or private organizations, the larger the threat to minorities -- over the long term. Because without restraint, the majority will have it's will in a pure democracy. That's why our constitution doesn't implement a pure democracy. Instead we have a Federal Democratic Republic. It was designed whit several safeguards against pure majoritarian democracy, with the express intentions to protect minority opinions and minority populations.

I think one of the reasons our politics has become so rancid is that we have allowed some of these safegurds of our liberty to whither.


Robin Garr wrote:I'm sorry, and I don't want to turn incivil, but I'll say it again: As a leading-edge Baby Boomer, I'm old enough to have lived through the civil rights struggle, and although too young to participate in any effective way, consumed it through print media and television. I've seen what happens when "state's rights" dominate governance, and I know that it's not a pretty sight.

The "states rights" in this case was about state laws in violation of the 14th amendment. If there where no state sovereignty at all, then there would be no protection in the various states from governing policies with which there people might disagree.

It's all good when you are in the majority opinion. It's bad when you are in the minority opinion. The states, when they are restored to the full significance, UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, will act as a firewall between an majority running rampant. As you know, the majority doesn't need protection.

You like to say there is now a "majority" in favor of gay marriage. Was gay rights less important before you could convince a majority to go along? With a smaller government, and one not involved in regulating marriage, the more socially progressive states could have had "gay marriage" much sooner, probably decades ago. It has been the majority holding it back, until now supposedly.

So, why can't you at least agree that shrinking government can have some positive social benefits?

Robin Garr wrote:Federal action, with support by a national majority, changed things, despite continued efforts by one major party to capitalize on the anger and residual bigotry of a minority. It's no real wonder that the election of an African-American president has re-stoked those fires.


Yeah, it's all good to be in the majority opinion with a big powerful government. It's all high cotton then. It's not so good to be in the minority opinion with a big government telling you what you can, and can't do everyday. A small government protects all opinions. So, the marketplace of ideas can work without government coercion. It's the whole "laboratory of democracy" idea.

Robin Garr wrote: It's no real wonder that the election of an African-American president has re-stoked those fires.

Yeah. It's because the President is black that folks are up in arms.

It's not Obamacare and how it was passed. It's not about record deficits as far as the eye can see with the Federal government borrowing 42% of the money that it spends every year. It's not the 1.5 TRILLION of debt piled on every year. It's not an EPA gone rogue driving by politic instead of science.

Oh no. It's not any of those things. It's because the President is black!

Will there ever be a time when you can concede that your political opposition has deeply held principles? Can you ever concede that everyone who doesn't agree with you is not a racist? Or a homophobe? Or a sexist? Or an uneducated dupe? When are you gonna quit living in the 60's, man?

It is attitudes like yours that make the political debate so poisonous . These are the techniques that are designed to silence your opponents so you don't have to understand them.
Last edited by Steve H on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:36 pm

Brian Curl wrote:You're not picking on me, you're just showing that you don't respect the values, opinions and thoughts of others that differ from yours and that's exactly what I've come to expect from you.

In other words, you're not going to answer the question?
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:37 pm

Matthew D wrote:I should say Steve H, that I respond to you because I actually have hope that you will get me to think differently about these issues. Feel the same way about Rob Coffey's posts. Won't say who never gets me to think differently.

It's all good. This is how the marketplace of ideas is supposed to work.

Matthew D wrote:And yes, I realize this post makes me sound like a 5th grader. I thought I'd raise the discourse level slightly.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by BevP » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:00 pm

Brian, I haven't directed anything at you yet because I have dealt plenty of times with people who have a mind set that their facts or ideas are a certain way and refuse to listen to anything that is in opposition to their way of thinking. You may be right that the numbers you have right now are the way you say, but ideas are shifting so fast, people are becoming much more tolerant,and accepting . I promise you it will not be long, maybe not in 5 yrs or even 10, before the whole country accepts gay marriage. And one more thing, hate no matter where it is directed is only eating the one alive that holds the hate.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Brad Keeton » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:35 pm

Mike Hardin wrote:This is to Brian Curl. I know you from way back. We lived in the same building on Eastern Parkway. At the time you were dating an African-American woman. I even think I saw you post on here that you have a bi-racial child. At one point in America, bi-racial marriages were illegal and a supposed majority of Americans felt it should be that way. And now you want to throw your hat in with a group of people who espouse the same type of bigotry? It's time you, and if the president does indeed feel the same way, and the rest were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.


I haven't yet seen a response to this. I've been reading from the sidelines, and will probably return to doing so, but am interested to see how Brian can reconcile his own past-experience with the belief he now espouses.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve P » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:59 pm

I would like it entered into the public record that (for a change... :wink: ) I have elected to remain on the sidelines for this public discourse. 8) Ya'll be nice to each other now, ya hear ? :P
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by TP Lowe » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:30 pm

Steve P wrote:I would like it entered into the public record that (for a change... :wink: ) I have elected to remain on the sidelines for this public discourse. 8) Ya'll be nice to each other now, ya hear ? :P


Whew. Same here. I'm exhausted from reading just this page.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve P » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:37 pm

TP Lowe wrote:
Steve P wrote:I would like it entered into the public record that (for a change... :wink: ) I have elected to remain on the sidelines for this public discourse. 8) Ya'll be nice to each other now, ya hear ? :P


Whew. Same here. I'm exhausted from reading just this page.


Exhausted AND swimmy headed. :?
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Derrick Dones » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:37 pm

Robin Garr wrote:Anyone who says he is fine with (name the group) BUT would deny them a right that everyone else enjoys isn't really fine with them. It's an irreconcilable contradiction.

Agreed.

Robin Garr wrote:And Brian, although he's a math whiz, apparently lacks skill as a words whiz. He says he has already explained why he feels this way, but I've gone back over the thread repeatedly and can't find it. Maybe Brian can point it out to us again, ideally in a few short, simple words that even stupid people like me can understand.

I cannot find this either Brian. Do you mind reposting exactly why you feel this way. If you have an opinion, simply to have an opinion, that certainly is your right. Albeit weak, in my opinion.

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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Sorry... I missed this posting before.

Matthew D wrote:Your argument is that government oppresses people. My argument is that the government helps protect those who cannot protect themselves. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, the idea that sans government we'd all have the best chance to live the way we want and POSSIBLY live without interference from others is laughable. Actually, it is beyond laughable.

I am not an anarcho-capitalist. Therefore, I never said that I want "no" government. If you ask around, you might be able to find an anarcho-capitalist to argue with.

Government can protect those who can't protect themselves, or it can oppress those who can't protect themselves. It just depends on what is constraining it. It is 100% guaranteed that the more power the government has, the more power that the government will use against someone.

Matthew D wrote:The whole argument stems from a utopian view of what is possible. If only X is possible with the government involved, imagine what would be possible without the government involved. But, we've been down this road.

I accept that such an argument can be made. I don't accept the application of that argument in reality.
You tell me. What is utopian about wanting a smaller, more constrained Federal government?

Matthew D wrote:My most generous reading of your argument Steve is that your utmost belief in the goodness of man is beyond laudable. A world where the only social contract that existed stemmed from a shared ideology that good comes from recognizing that we will all get (closest) to what we want if we all allow everyone else to get what they want. Somehow, removing government interference is going to balance a world that is inherently unequal and unfair.

This is not my view at all. The only folks who seem to trust in the virtue and perfectibility of mankind are the utopians of the left and the right. Communists believed that humans can be perfectly collectivist creatures. Anarcho-capitalists believe that humans have little collectivist tendency. They are both wrong.

My view is that of the Founders. They spent much time arguing about factions, and ways to prevent a faction from gaining complete control of the awesome power of government. See my discussion about the branches of government and federalism. These were the methods chosen to best guarantee perpetual liberty, not trusting in the good nature of men.

They did not set up government this way because they trusted the virtues of men. They set it up this why because they did not. Of course, this got in the way of the great Progressive experiment, and so they set about tearing down these firewalls. It's to the Founders' credit that it's taken this long for the Republic's illness to become critical.

You are right about one thing, having less government would not eliminate unfairness and inequality from the word. That's an impossible task, with or without government. You believe in the power of government to eliminate something that can't be eliminated. The utopian is you.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Alan H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:32 pm

ZOO MONKEY !!!!.......nuff ' said :lol:
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Reagan H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:34 pm

Alan H wrote:ZOO MONKEY !!!!.......nuff ' said :lol:
:lol:

BevP wrote:Brian, I haven't directed anything at you yet because I have dealt plenty of times with people who have a mind set that their facts or ideas are a certain way and refuse to listen to anything that is in opposition to their way of thinking... And one more thing, hate no matter where it is directed is only eating the one alive that holds the hate.


Do you define hate by your first sentence? :?:

Matthew D wrote:That is as far as you've gone to establish reasons for your beliefs.


Does one have to have a reason for our beliefs? A reason, or a good reason, as determined by you?

Robin Garr wrote:I'm sorry to keep picking on Brian, but he does keep coming back and asking for it


Really, asking specifically to be called a troll, a douche, etc? To have his wordsmithing (just made that up) critiqued bc you disagree? You wanna see hate, just look at this site!

I usually show this site to new restaurateurs who are new to town/to the business. This is the third time in a week that I have brought up the site and had to tell someone to ignore a certain post. I could say to ignore it bc it has nothing to do with restaurants, or for that matter, Chikfila. But in fact it is the name calling that is out of control. I have seen words used in the last week that would bring my Mom around the corner to smack them outta my mouth. Asshat, Dickweed, Douche, whatever Brian was called in the Majid thread. The labelling of driveby on a post in anther thread. The attacking, wholescale attacking, of the Buy It Local OP. Why is this allowed? And why against a VIEWPOINT. Brian is not espousing hate, merely a different view. If you don't like it, respond with the open-mindedness that comes with realizing that ideas are not dangerous, the people behind them are. There are no implicit threats in his response, and no one has made an argument about Brian's history of hate and danger to society. I have seen consistency in the tone of Brian's responses, while the emotion behind the train that is "against him" (don't try to tell me otherwise) has been rising.

The reason he hasn't responded is probably disgust. Stop congratulating on winning an argument bc the other party won't engage in belittling and name calling. He owes no one a perfectly worded, or "short worded" response to obvious baiting. So he disagrees. So what? Really, so what? Disagreement does not translate to hate.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Jon K » Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:54 pm

You know, I hadn't checked this topic since it was on its first page. But, I couldn't help being curious about how a Chick-fil-A discussion generated 17 pages of posts. Sorry I let my curiosity get the better of me. I like food.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:33 pm

Reagan H wrote:This is the third time in a week that I have brought up the site and had to tell someone to ignore a certain post. I could say to ignore it bc it has nothing to do with restaurants, or for that matter, Chikfila.

Okay, that's a fair point. I have re-titled the thread and moved it out of the Restaurants forum into All About Louisville, which is open to off-topic discussion.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Lonnie Turner » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:45 pm

Lonnie Turner wrote:Is there a projected opening date? Sorry if I missed it in a previous post.


OK, found out something actually relevant to the restaurant topic (hey, anybody remember food? It's what we ate back when we were kids).

After no response to a post on the actual topic of a restaurant opening, I finally called a local outlet. Word is October 11 or close to it. Doubt many people who actually care are keeping up on this thread, but against the bare hope some people with an in interest in what goes in their mouths instead of out of it may reap some meager information regarding the topic of the original post I offer this digression...
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