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Robin Garr

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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:06 am

Steve H wrote:If we could shrink government authority and get it out of our lives to the greatest extent possible, then we could all have a better chance to live the way we want, without interference from anybody else.

At the risk of re-lighting the fires :oops: but also speaking as one who lived through the civil rights battles of the '60s, this is the exact approach that institutionalized racial segregation in the South for a century after the Civil War. Yes, segregation was a matter of law; but it became so because it was the wish of an empowered minority to control the majority.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:22 am

Robin Garr wrote:
Steve H wrote:If we could shrink government authority and get it out of our lives to the greatest extent possible, then we could all have a better chance to live the way we want, without interference from anybody else.

At the risk of re-lighting the fires :oops: but also speaking as one who lived through the civil rights battles of the '60s, this is the exact approach that institutionalized racial segregation in the South for a century after the Civil War. Yes, segregation was a matter of law; but it became so because it was the wish of an empowered minority to control the majority.


1. Segregation was enforced by the government.

2. Violence against folks who wanted to integrate was ignored by police agencies in violation of their duties.

3. If the state government would have stayed out of social issues, there would have been no Jim Crow laws. Unfortunately, state governments grew corrupted.

4. The Federal government finally got involved with making laws to enforce the 14th amendment. against corrupt state governments. Finally! What happens when it is the Federal Government that has become corrupted? Like right now, for example?

5. This is a case of government corruption. The less power that Government has, the less incentive there is for corruption to arise within its ranks in the first place.

6. AND the less authority and power government has, the less damage it can cause to society when it is corrupted.

7. Thomas Jefferson: The government that governs least, governs best.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Brian Curl » Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:32 am

Jackie R. wrote:so your post is lost on me.


Jackie, I know your great intellect is blocking your understanding. It's pretty simple, you're calling me names and throwing me under the bus for a value that the President of the United States also holds.

So, since I'm a loser and a douche and whatever else you called me, does that mean you feel the same for President Obama? Since you believe his views make him a douche, is he still going to get your vote?

I could understand your reaction if I had been gay bashing - that is not the case. I've stated my belief because I have that right, just like you have the right to state yours. The only difference is that your emotional rage leads you to wrongful attacks instead of civil discussion.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Matthew D » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:14 am

Steve H wrote:The ONLY reason that this is such a contentious issue is that the government is involved with defining marriage. When the government is involved it's a huge threat to folks. If we could all agree to get the government out of the way, then it wouldn't matter whatever one's personal opinions on the subject are.

There are always going to be prejudice and philosophical disagreements. The problem is that folks have gotten used to getting the government involved on THEIR side of these issues. Many of these social battlegrounds are because folks in New York try to tell folks in Alabama (and vice versa) how to live there lives, using the Federal Government as the big stick. If we could shrink government authority and get it out of our lives to the greatest extent possible, then we could all have a better chance to live the way we want, without interference from anybody else.


Your argument is that government oppresses people. My argument is that the government helps protect those who cannot protect themselves. FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, the idea that sans government we'd all have the best chance to live the way we want and POSSIBLY live without interference from others is laughable. Actually, it is beyond laughable.

The whole argument stems from a utopian view of what is possible. If only X is possible with the government involved, imagine what would be possible without the government involved.

My most generous reading of your argument Steve is that your utmost belief in the goodness of man is beyond laudable. A world where the only social contract that existed stemmed from a shared ideology that good comes from recognizing that we will all get (closest) to what we want if we all allow everyone else to get what they want. Somehow, removing government interference is going to balance a world that is inherently unequal and unfair.

But, we've been down this road. I accept that such an argument can be made. I don't accept the application of that argument in reality.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Matthew D » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:17 am

Steve H wrote:
Robin Garr wrote:
Steve H wrote:If we could shrink government authority and get it out of our lives to the greatest extent possible, then we could all have a better chance to live the way we want, without interference from anybody else.

At the risk of re-lighting the fires :oops: but also speaking as one who lived through the civil rights battles of the '60s, this is the exact approach that institutionalized racial segregation in the South for a century after the Civil War. Yes, segregation was a matter of law; but it became so because it was the wish of an empowered minority to control the majority.


1. Segregation was enforced by the government.

2. Violence against folks who wanted to integrate was ignored by police agencies in violation of their duties.

3. If the state government would have stayed out of social issues, there would have been no Jim Crow laws. Unfortunately, state governments grew corrupted.

4. The Federal government finally got involved with making laws to enforce the 14th amendment. against corrupt state governments. Finally! What happens when it is the Federal Government that has become corrupted? Like right now, for example?

5. This is a case of government corruption. The less power that Government has, the less incentive there is for corruption to arise within its ranks in the first place.

6. AND the less authority and power government has, the less damage it can cause to society when it is corrupted.

7. Thomas Jefferson: The government that governs least, governs best.


You argument here is that segregation was supported by the government. It says nothing about how segregation would have played out in your governmental vision.

Even if I buy your argument that the government oppresses (which I either don't or don't have an issue with), I'm still wondering what oppressive force would replace government if we were somehow to replace it.

This whole vision is based off of an argument against government. It's never an argument for anything.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Matthew D » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:21 am

I should say Steve H, that I respond to you because I actually have hope that you will get me to think differently about these issues. Feel the same way about Rob Coffey's posts. Won't say who never gets me to think differently.

And yes, I realize this post makes me sound like a 5th grader. I thought I'd raise the discourse level slightly.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:42 am

Steve H wrote:1. Segregation was enforced by the government.

2. Violence against folks who wanted to integrate was ignored by police agencies in violation of their duties.

3. If the state government would have stayed out of social issues, there would have been no Jim Crow laws. Unfortunately, state governments grew corrupted.

4. The Federal government finally got involved with making laws to enforce the 14th amendment. against corrupt state governments. Finally! What happens when it is the Federal Government that has become corrupted? Like right now, for example?

5. This is a case of government corruption. The less power that Government has, the less incentive there is for corruption to arise within its ranks in the first place.

6. AND the less authority and power government has, the less damage it can cause to society when it is corrupted.

7. Thomas Jefferson: The government that governs least, governs best.

Steve, I can agree with the first three to some extent, although I would point out that Jim Crow laws merely institutionalized the existing public practice, which by modern standards was immoral and wrong. People weren't bigots because Jim Crow laws made them so; Jim Crow laws were written because the empowered minority espoused bigotry.

Your fourth point rests on the assumption that the federal government is broadly corrupt. I don't buy that, and I think the election of 2008 demonstrates that the majority will throw out a bad administration. What's happened since then is frightening, because a major political party has made common cause with a bizarre, extremist splinter group and gone rogue. I hope this won't last and that balance will be restored.

I don't agree with number 6 at all. Government goes back to ancient Mesopotamia, and over the ages it has proven to be an effective, if sometimes rough, way for people to band together in communities and, yes, GOVERN themselves. It doesn't always work well - see above - but it has proven superior to anarchy.

Finally, Jefferson didn't say that. Henry David Thoreau did, in Civil Disobedience. Which, by the way, is one way for citizens with deeply ingrained differential beliefs to get themselves heard. At the risk of incarceration by the majority.

I'm sorry, and I don't want to turn incivil, but I'll say it again: As a leading-edge Baby Boomer, I'm old enough to have lived through the civil rights struggle, and although too young to participate in any effective way, consumed it through print media and television. I've seen what happens when "state's rights" dominate governance, and I know that it's not a pretty sight. Federal action, with support by a national majority, changed things, despite continued efforts by one major party to capitalize on the anger and residual bigotry of a minority. It's no real wonder that the election of an African-American president has re-stoked those fires.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Jeff Cavanaugh » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:56 am

Agree with much of your post, Robin, but:

Robin Garr wrote:I think the election of 2008 demonstrates that the majority will throw out a bad administration.


This argument would be more convincing if they'd done it in 2004, rather than term limits doing it for them in 2008.

Robin Garr wrote:What's happened since then is frightening, because a major political party has made common cause with a bizarre, extremist splinter group and gone rogue. I hope this won't last and that balance will be restored.


The two-party system that has evolved in the US (largely an unintended consequence of the way the electoral college is set up) squishes people with a broad variety of divergent views together into artificial party coalitions. But those internal divisions always remain there, simmering below the surface, and from time to time one faction or another has a little more voice and power. In the 2008 elections, the liberal wing of the Democratic party was in the ascendency, and (largely because of what those liberal Democrats have done since) the economically right-wing group within the GOP is enjoying prominence. But those folks have always been there, and other groups within the GOP who used to hold the reins (anti-abortion social conservatives, defense hawks) are still there too, just being overshadowed at the moment.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Steve H » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:06 am

Matthew D wrote:You argument here is that segregation was supported by the government. It says nothing about how segregation would have played out in your governmental vision.

Even if I buy your argument that the government oppresses (which I either don't or don't have an issue with), I'm still wondering what oppressive force would replace government if we were somehow to replace it.

This whole vision is based off of an argument against government. It's never an argument for anything.


I did not say that there should be "no" government.

The Founders deliberately set up "balance of power" in the design of our governments. Everyone knows about the co-equal 3-branches: Congress, President, and the Courts. They also split the Congress into 2 houses to give more power to less populous states. This was to support the idea of Federalism, which splits power between Federal, State, and Local governments, plus the individual citizens who might organize privately how they saw fit.

This careful balance as gone out of kilter.

Federalism has been weakened by the 17th Amendment, which set up direct election of Senators instead of their appointment by state legislatures. These reduced the power of states with respect to the Federal government, and also tends to nationalize issues that should be more local. One way it does this is be making it easier for interests outside of the any particular state to help elect its Senators. This often makes Senators more beholden outside interest groups when they should be representing there states interests.

By far the biggest decrease in Federalism was the 16th Amendment authorizing the Federal income tax. This allows the Federal government to bribe us and our state and local governments with our own money, and has directly led to the colossal Federal Government that we have today, telling folks what kind of toilets they might have, what kind of clothes washers, what kind of light bulbs, right down to telling them that you need Federal permission to raise bunny rabbits and marijuana.

The Federal government started growing exponential at that point, with no break in sight. This makes the outcomes of Federal elections vastly more important than they used to be. And since the invasions of Federal power into our personal space has increased, the results of Federal elections have become more personal too. This leads to the acrimonious debates that we have today.

Then there is also the corruption, and that is an accurate word, of the Federal Courts. The "living constitution" virus has infected many, including much of the Supreme Court. I used to believe in the "living constitution" BS. But then I realized, if the Laws and Constitution didn't mean what they were written to mean, then we had become a country of "men", of aristocrats, instead of a democratic republic of laws.

With the Courts giving themselves the power, with the support of one of our great political parties, to say what laws mean, instead of upholding what the laws are written to mean, then we have be autocracy, and not a republic.

This also serves to make our national elections more acrimonious, as he who whens elections, can appoint this autocratic judges, and then take undemocratic shortcuts to there policy goals. This is not democracy in action.

So, let's look at Jim Crow. The states violated the 14th Amendment by passing these laws that differentiated their populations based on race, and there proxies, like income and educational attainment. The courts substituted their judgement for that clearly written in the Constitution, and didn't strike down these laws as they clearly should have been. Anybody for freedom, should not want a "living constitution".
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Mike Hardin » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:40 am

This is to Brian Curl. I know you from way back. We lived in the same building on Eastern Parkway. At the time you were dating an African-American woman. I even think I saw you post on here that you have a bi-racial child. At one point in America, bi-racial marriages were illegal and a supposed majority of Americans felt it should be that way. And now you want to throw your hat in with a group of people who espouse the same type of bigotry? It's time you, and if the president does indeed feel the same way, and the rest were dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by BevP » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:37 am

Carla G wrote:I'm not interested in name calling or getting ugly with anyone. It won't bring about anything that's of value.
This is what I ask of you Brian, and of everyone reading this thread... Ask yourself, "If my child turns out to be gay, how will I deal with that?" I won't even get into the discussion of what makes a person gay, be it gentics or habitat. Just this, if you find yourself with a gay child will you still love them? Will hold them, kiss them, tell them you support them, tell them they are of value to you. Will you want the world around them to respect them and offer them the same oppertunities that are offered to the rest of the world members. You needn't even post your answer to me , just promise me you will think about it. Because I can almost guarantee that it is a question many of you out there will be faced with. If not your child, your grandchild, your niece or nephew or soemone close to you.
And because it doesn't directly affrect me doesn't mean I don't care Brian. I think it's obvious I do care. Ask yourself what REALLY is important to you as well as the rest of our community. I doubt that it's who (whom?) others sleep with.

Carla,This is a good question, my kids are now 26 and 28 both straight males but when they were very young probably 11 or 12 I started talking to them about how I would love them no matter what.That if they ever needed to talk to me about sex or anything I would be there and I would never judge them. I have gay family members(cousins) I have gay friends. I once went to a gay bar to be of support to my best friends brother who is gay and one of his friends came up to him and said Gee I wish my family would do that for me.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Robin Garr » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:52 am

BevP wrote:Carla,This is a good question, my kids are now 26 and 28 both straight males but when they were very young probably 11 or 12 I started talking to them about how I would love them no matter what.That if they ever needed to talk to me about sex or anything I would be there and I would never judge them. I have gay family members(cousins) I have gay friends. I once went to a gay bar to be of support to my best friends brother who is gay and one of his friends came up to him and said Gee I wish my family would do that for me.

You are a good person, Bev.

I'm sorry to keep picking on Brian, but he does keep coming back and asking for it: Anyone who says he is fine with (name the group) BUT would deny them a right that everyone else enjoys isn't really fine with them. It's an irreconcilable contradiction.

And Brian, although he's a math whiz, apparently lacks skill as a words whiz. He says he has already explained why he feels this way, but I've gone back over the thread repeatedly and can't find it. Maybe Brian can point it out to us again, ideally in a few short, simple words that even stupid people like me can understand.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Brian Curl » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:14 pm

I see you're getting back to your illogical points again Robin. I, like the president and nearly 50% of Americans (according to you) believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

So, label me however you wish, just be sure to add that label to 50% of the country and the President along with 30 states.

If me, 50% of the country, 30 states and the President are homophobic then there's a greater problem that this thread is not going to solve.

You're not picking on me, you're just showing that you don't respect the values, opinions and thoughts of others that differ from yours and that's exactly what I've come to expect from you.
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Mark R. » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:20 pm

Brian Curl wrote:Jackie, I know your great intellect is blocking your understanding. It's pretty simple, you're calling me names and throwing me under the bus for a value that the President of the United States also holds.

I certainly wouldn't call that a big point in your favor! :roll:
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Re: NEW RESTAURANT - Big News! S. Hurstbourne Pkwy

by Matthew D » Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:29 pm

Brian Curl wrote:I see you're getting back to your illogical points again Robin. I, like the president and nearly 50% of Americans (according to you) believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

So, label me however you wish, just be sure to add that label to 50% of the country and the President along with 30 states.

If me, 50% of the country, 30 states and the President are homophobic then there's a greater problem that this thread is not going to solve.

You're not picking on me, you're just showing that you don't respect the values, opinions and thoughts of others that differ from yours and that's exactly what I've come to expect from you.


In a response, which I think was to me, you said you thought gay marriage was unnatural. That is as far as you've gone to establish reasons for your beliefs.

Your argumentative performance wouldn't get you out of a speech, rhetoric, or writing 101 class. You are doing nothing but saying it's my belief and I have a right to it. If you have a problem with this belief, that's okay because I (sort of) have numbers on my side. That's it. That's all.

Applied to a forum, you are a troll. Seemingly avoiding to offer an support to your position for some reason. I assume it's because you don't feel like you should. Just expose a belief and stand by it. That works at pulpits, on talk radio, and at stump speeches. But it shouldn't work in conversation with others.

You're worse than the five-year old who takes his ball and goes home. You won't let us use the ball, and, hell, you won't go home.
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