Off-topic discussions about regional news, issues and politics. Pretty much everything goes here, but keep it polite: Flaming and spamming aren't welcome.
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:39 am

Nimbus Couzin wrote:
Steve,
You simply aren't thinking about this the right way. You wonder why the gov't wouldn't need administrators for all of the paper work and red tape? Because with single payer, you wouldn't have insurance claims! You wouldn't need to sell people insurance! You wouldn't need to advertise your insurance company A versus insurance company B. When I show up to the doc office, I wouldn't be greeted by insurance forms and then asked for my cards and then shuttled off to another "business" office with extra bureaucrats if something wasn't in order.

In short, when you go to the doc office, there would be perhaps a receptionist, some nurses, and some doctors. But not the bureaucrats.

And you wouldn't have to argue about whether procedure X, Y, or Z is covered. Leave it up to the doctor, not an accountant!

There would be less administration because we'd all be covered. I wouldn't need to email my insurance agent so she can have me fax over application forms. (my most recent agent, for my baby, was negligent by not informing us that vaccines (routine shots) would apply against our deductable). Her job would be gone, yes, because it would be unnecessary. Yeah, we wouldn't need the collection departments either (boohoo)


This is not true. In government single payer systems, government bureaucrats decide what is covered or not. And sometimes it's based on the who is being treated. For example, an old person might not get a pace maker if some government bureaucrat decides the improvement to his quality of life is not worth the cost to society. A younger person with the exact same condition would get the device, because some government bureaucrat decided that his future contributions to society make it worth. Criteria like this are used now, today in government single payer systems.

You are the one misinformed if you think EVERYTHING is covered by government single payer systems. They have much more stringent criteria before you can even get a CAT scan or an MRI. This is one of the big ways that government plans save money. They REDUCE the amount of care that is available.

>>>>UPDATED SECTION
The bureaucrats decide what the annual goal will be for many of these procedures based on budgetary constraints.

For example, a common practice to treat back pain is to inject steroids to reduce inflammation, thus promoting healing. (I am not a doctor.) So, Britain's NHS decided they could only afford X number of steriod injections per year. So, they started using other criteria to limit the number of steroid injections besides what was medically best for patients. Things like age, whether they smoked, etc. So it is ABSOLUTELY not true that everything is covered. Do you know what new REQUIRED treatment was for the patients who didn't now qualify for the now restricted steroid injections? Injections of opiate pain killers, like morphine. Cheap for the government, but very addictive and really doesn't promote healing. At. All.

It's obvious to me, that many advocates of single payer do not understand how medical decisions are actually made under these systems.
<<<<END OF UPDATED SECTION

So, you might be able to get the cursory primary care examine without much paper work. Woe be on to you if develop a chronic or difficult to diagnose condition. Single payer systems are notoriously bad for cases like this.

Another area single payer government systems are looking to cut costs is by reducing care to smokers and over weight people. The rationale is that their behavior is costing society money by reducing their baseline health. Of course there's no limit to government invasiveness once it gets started.

Nimbus Couzin wrote:We have massive rationing right now. By the insurance companies.
No. It's not rationing when health insurance companies do it. It's the free market.

Let's say that I want a car for every day of the week. Is Ford rationing cars because they wont sell me several cars at a price that I'm willing to pay? No. It's not rationing. It's how economics works. The buyer and the seller have to agree on price.

If you want a plan that covers more things, they why wouldn't expect to pay more for it? And if not, why would anyone want to sell you one at a loss? This is not rationing it is economics.

A government single payer plan would really be rationing. The bureaucrats would decide how much money to spend on health care that year and the number of times that the various medical procedures are performed would be restricted to some arbitrarily derived target. Even if people are willing to pay for more procedures, they can't. That IS rationing. There's a customer ready to buy. There's a seller ready to sell. The government says no. That's rationing.

Nimbus Couzin wrote:Further, we presently have THOUSANDS of different insurance companies, all basically doing the same thing. If you had just one, you'd have a LOT more potential efficiency. Why have multiple people doing the same job? I mean, if you look at corporate situations, mergers almost always lower costs due to increased efficiency and less workers needed. Come on, look at the business example there.
i mean doesn't it make sense that one "company" would have less paperwork than a thousand companies trying to do the exact same job? I'd call it streamlining. Especially when you eliminate billing from the system, which is what most of the paperwork is all about!


This is silly. This was the basis of of the Soviet economy. Why have three car manufacturers duplicating all that effort when all you need is one?

You could apply this logic to anything. Why have many small coffee beverage companies, duplicating the invoicing, the purchasing, and the hiring, etc. ONE big company, or better yet, the Government Coffee Beverage Cooperative, would be more efficient. It would have the same number of customers but only one accounts payable department, one hiring process, etc. Think of the duplicated effort that would be saved!

Heck, it could get rid of making coffee in pesky little batches and brew one big batch per year! Think of the savings! And don't forget! The GCBC would be able to distribute the delicious coffee beverages more fairly! It's all good!

Do you really need to be reminded that competition is a good thing in the long run?
Last edited by Steve H on Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
no avatar
User

Reagan H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

131

Joined

Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:52 am

Location

Keepin on the Sunny Side, Always on the Sunny Side

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Reagan H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:47 am

Just curious, with all the talk of expatriates seeing health-care programs abroad, has anyone experienced a military hospital here in the US of A? For maintenance or events?

NOT a slam on the people, I worked as a Red Cross volunteer growing up on a couple of different installations, but...

As a patient, and as an impressionable kid, there is no resource for problems. You get crappy service, you have to take it. You get no service (ask the average wait in the ER) you have to take it. They give you the wrong meds, you have to take it, and then sit in the ER with the allergic reaction (noted on your chart on every single visit since I was a kid) and take it. This allergic reaction has happened 3 times, when they gave me different versions of the same drug. The main point... "they" being the service providers, KNOW you have no other choice (key word here) and so they can be however they want.

From customer service to accountability, while I will say the military has made great efforts to provide services to their people, because it is "free" you get what you get. I feel much more comfortable demanding better service and asking more questions (rather than the REALLY rush through physical) in a business that to some degree is accountable to me.

The grittier the details, the more faceted the argument becomes (I am currently w/o health insurance and have opinions on the ridonk of that) but... be careful what you wish for. Just because our program is based on money and politics, and sucks, doesn't mean we need to copy the grass on the other side of the pond; aim high, not opposite for opposite's sake.
Last edited by Reagan H on Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:48 am

Nimbus Couzin wrote:Steve H writes:
"Somehow, you think the Government can create and manage a system that will cover more people, be administratively more efficient, provide superior care, and be cheaper; even when every government program in history has proved this to be false."

Well, just check out every other industrialized nation in the planet you live on, known as planet earth...


Well, the folks in charge of ranking health care systems have rigged the evaluation to favor government run single payer systems. The comparison is rigged.

See my previous post in this thread.
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Bill P » Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:56 am

Steve H wrote:
Nimbus Couzin wrote:Steve H writes:
"Somehow, you think the Government can create and manage a system that will cover more people, be administratively more efficient, provide superior care, and be cheaper; even when every government program in history has proved this to be false."

Well, just check out every other industrialized nation in the planet you live on, known as planet earth...


Well, the folks in charge of ranking health care systems have rigged the evaluation to favor government run single payer systems. The comparison is rigged.

See my previous post in this thread.

I read your previous links and don't agree with your rigged assertions. That's fine as we don't need to agree on everything or anything. But, if the surveys are rigged, I'm a bit baffled why none of the stakeholders have not attempted to publish unrigged results...say the surveys which show the US system is more efficient than most other Western nations.
Just for your info, I have not made up my mind regarding the single payer system, but the current version of health care spends a much higher % of GDP and the outcomes are no better than elsewhere. That is not efficient delivery and some meaningful changes need to be made at the core, not just on the fringes.
no avatar
User

Nimbus Couzin

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

684

Joined

Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:05 pm

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Nimbus Couzin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:01 am

Steve,
I really don't understand why you are so enamored by the insurance companies being the ones to make the decisions whether to cover procedures. Insurance companies have financial incentives NOT to pay for procedures. The costs come straight out of their bottom line.

Frankly, I'd rather have someone who isn't required by law to maximize profit (fiduciary responsibility) making the decisions. The insurance companies are giants, and I could call their decision-makers bureaucrats just as well as I can call a gov't agent a bureaucrat.

And yes, I agree that it is better to give a child a pacemaker rather than someone on their deathbed. Again, insurance companies make these decisions every day. They are rationing now. But I'd rather have the systems be transparent and fair, rather than the decisions made behind closed doors by for-profit cost cutters obedient to the almighty stock market value of their corporation. Look at some insider reports on how the insurance industry withholds treatments, denies treatment, to people who need it. They do it whenever they can. That is how they maximize profits. I find it immoral.

I know some people think "free market" is the savior of all. I don't. I often see the "free-market" failing. And I often see the taxpayers bailing it out. Right now, US "free-market" healthcare is failing. And, as usual taxpayers are footing the bill. Immoral system.

Again, look at the results: twice the cost, and poor outcome. As Donald Trump would say, "you're fired."
Dr. Nimbus Couzin
no avatar
User

Mark Head

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1729

Joined

Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:44 pm

Location

Prospect

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Mark Head » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:03 am

Bill P wrote:
Steve H wrote:
Nimbus Couzin wrote:Steve H writes:
"Somehow, you think the Government can create and manage a system that will cover more people, be administratively more efficient, provide superior care, and be cheaper; even when every government program in history has proved this to be false."

Well, just check out every other industrialized nation in the planet you live on, known as planet earth...


Well, the folks in charge of ranking health care systems have rigged the evaluation to favor government run single payer systems. The comparison is rigged.

See my previous post in this thread.

I read your previous links and don't agree with your rigged assertions. That's fine as we don't need to agree on everything or anything. But, if the surveys are rigged, I'm a bit baffled why none of the stakeholders have not attempted to publish unrigged results...say the surveys which show the US system is more efficient than most other Western nations.
Just for your info, I have not made up my mind regarding the single payer system, but the current version of health care spends a much higher % of GDP and the outcomes are no better than elsewhere. That is not efficient delivery and some meaningful changes need to be made at the core, not just on the fringes.


The ultimate problem with this data is that outcomes are dependent on a host of factors that have nothing to due with the efficiency or even quality of the healthcare system in question.
no avatar
User

Nimbus Couzin

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

684

Joined

Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:05 pm

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Nimbus Couzin » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:05 am

Steve H wrote:
Nimbus Couzin wrote:Steve H writes:
"Somehow, you think the Government can create and manage a system that will cover more people, be administratively more efficient, provide superior care, and be cheaper; even when every government program in history has proved this to be false."

Well, just check out every other industrialized nation in the planet you live on, known as planet earth...


Well, the folks in charge of ranking health care systems have rigged the evaluation to favor government run single payer systems. The comparison is rigged.

See my previous post in this thread.


Yeah, the World Health Organization is "rigging" everything to make the US look bad. They're just a bunch of gov't bureaucrats, right? Who's ratings do you prefer? The "Steve H rating system?" Sorry it doesn't have much street cred in the world we live in.
Dr. Nimbus Couzin
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Bill P » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:09 am

Thanks for the reply. Would you care to elaborate on these factors that make the surveys of limited value? I see us spending lots more for health care and for the life of me cannot see where we are better off than other nations. More $$ in, and the same results is not efficiency by economic definition.
Thanks
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:10 am

Bill P wrote: I read your previous links and don't agree with your rigged assertions. That's fine as we don't need to agree on everything or anything. But, if the surveys are rigged, I'm a bit baffled why none of the stakeholders have not attempted to publish unrigged results...say the surveys which show the US system is more efficient than most other Western nations.
Just for your info, I have not made up my mind regarding the single payer system, but the current version of health care spends a much higher % of GDP and the outcomes are no better than elsewhere. That is not efficient delivery and some meaningful changes need to be made at the core, not just on the fringes.

That's a good question. You can google up some studies that show, based on diagnoses, the US leads the world in positive outcomes. On top of this the US leads the world in the amount of diagnosis equipment per captia. So, our system is better at diagnosis, better in treatments based on outcomes after diagnosis; but WHO manages to avoid looking at any of this while making the world health care rankings ? Crazy.

Like I pointed out previously, they like to use socialist concepts like fairness of payments and fairness of distribution, and things only tertiarily related to health care like life expectancy.

You could be more specific about where you disagree with me on my "rigged' assertion.
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Bill P » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:16 am

I disagree in that fairness in distribution is a valid factor to evaluate. Your believe $$ is the only fair way to distribute resources like health care and I do not agree with that position You can have the best doctors, the best diagnostic tools, but if there isn't some minimal equity in the distribution it leaves a significant portion of the population marginalized.

I really do need to get back to work now.
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:46 am

Bill P wrote:I disagree in that fairness in distribution is a valid factor to evaluate. Your believe $$ is the only fair way to distribute resources like health care and I do not agree with that position You can have the best doctors, the best diagnostic tools, but if there isn't some minimal equity in the distribution it leaves a significant portion of the population marginalized.

I never said that $$ is the only fair way. I think it must be a factor in any sustainable system, though this is the first time I've mentioned that here.

It's ok for you think that the fairness of the distribution of medical care is important. BUT, this is not a measure of how well a medical care system performs it's tasks. The way WHO does it, it's a measure of how socialist a society is. The more socialist, the higher the ranking.


Bill P wrote:I really do need to get back to work now.

Me too.
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:02 am

Nimbus Couzin wrote:Steve,
I really don't understand why you are so enamored by the insurance companies being the ones to make the decisions whether to cover procedures. Insurance companies have financial incentives NOT to pay for procedures. The costs come straight out of their bottom line.

Frankly, I'd rather have someone who isn't required by law to maximize profit (fiduciary responsibility) making the decisions. The insurance companies are giants, and I could call their decision-makers bureaucrats just as well as I can call a gov't agent a bureaucrat.

And yes, I agree that it is better to give a child a pacemaker rather than someone on their deathbed. Again, insurance companies make these decisions every day. They are rationing now. But I'd rather have the systems be transparent and fair, rather than the decisions made behind closed doors by for-profit cost cutters obedient to the almighty stock market value of their corporation. Look at some insider reports on how the insurance industry withholds treatments, denies treatment, to people who need it. They do it whenever they can. That is how they maximize profits. I find it immoral.

I know some people think "free market" is the savior of all. I don't. I often see the "free-market" failing. And I often see the taxpayers bailing it out. Right now, US "free-market" healthcare is failing. And, as usual taxpayers are footing the bill. Immoral system.

Again, look at the results: twice the cost, and poor outcome. As Donald Trump would say, "you're fired."


I'm not talking about a free market that's unregulated. And the current financial melt down has more to do with government interference in markets, government/ big enterprise cronyism, and down right fraud. None of these will be better under single payer.

What incentives does a small purveyor of coffee based beverages have not to cut corners and cheat customers? Why do you think similar market forces do not apply to insurance companies? That's what I don't understand about you. You seem perfectly willing, as a small business owner, to compete in a free market by delivering a superior product. Somehow, you reckon that insurance companies do not deserve that same privilege. People can fire their coffee beverage purveyor or their insurance company if they do not like the product or the service. THEY CANNOT FIRE A GOVERNMENT SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM.

What should these folks with back pain in Britain's NHS do when their medication is refused by some bureaucrat? Can they fire them?

====Copied from an update made to an ealier post====
For example, a common practice to treat back pain is to inject steroids to reduce inflammation, thus promoting healing. (I am not a doctor.) So, Britain's NHS decided they could only afford X number of steriod injections per year. So, they started using other criteria to limit the number of steroid injections besides what was medically best for patients. Things like age, whether they smoked, etc. So it is ABSOLUTELY not true that everything is covered. Do you know what new REQUIRED treatment was for the patients who didn't now qualify for the now restricted steroid injections? Injections of opiate pain killers, like morphine. Cheap for the government, but very addictive and really doesn't promote healing. At. All.

It's obvious to me, that many advocates of single payer do not understand how medical decisions are actually made under these systems.
====End of copy====

You should be asking yourself, what incentives does governemtn have to reduce care. They are there, even though you refuse to look.
Last edited by Steve H on Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
no avatar
User

Gayle DeM

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

2002

Joined

Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Gayle DeM » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:03 am

Love my Google Chrome!
"I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian" -Erma Bombeck
no avatar
User

Steve H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1406

Joined

Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:27 pm

Location

Neanderthals rock!

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Steve H » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:31 am

Nimbus Couzin wrote:Yeah, the World Health Organization is "rigging" everything to make the US look bad. They're just a bunch of gov't bureaucrats, right? Who's ratings do you prefer? The "Steve H rating system?" Sorry it doesn't have much street cred in the world we live in.


I don't have a ranking system. I can tell a biased one though. I'll let the folks who are interested go read the WHO reports and decide for themselves if it is a fair evaluation of medical care systems. I'll just note that, no where in there can you find anything about diagnoses or outcomes based on treatment. That's right nothing at all about the quality of care. But there's plenty of stuff about what they think "fair" and "unfair" distribution of medical resources is.

My previous post on the WHO rankings is here.
no avatar
User

Jeff Gillenwater

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

107

Joined

Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:07 pm

Re: Whole Foods CEO vs. Obama's health insurance reform

by Jeff Gillenwater » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:27 pm

As a "free market" alternative, everyone could just drop private insurance altogether, not worry about preventative measures at all, and go to the emergency room for everything.

If this debate is about money and maintaining individual rights, demanding the services to which one has a legal claim while not paying for any of it would be the most cost effective decision a person could make.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Claudebot and 0 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign