Paris, Cafe Life, Placemaking, 8664, Bridges and Food

Do your really want to submit your choice of vehicles to a government office for approval? Are you angling for this job?

I didn't know the job was available. I'm in!

Unfortunately, the position of Car Czar was temporarily vacant, but has already been filled.

Steve H... Fair call. And I apologize for the particularly nasty things I said there at the end. I'm realizing that a big problem was my lack of clarification of why I was talking about SUVs and McMansions in the first place. The 'destruction' I was referring to was the economic meltdown. US manufacturers had put way too many of their eggs in the SUV basket and when gas prices went through the roof, people realized gas guzzlers were probably not the best idea. Had the American people and American auto makers had more foresight, some (obviously not all) of the meltdown could have been avoided. Diversification, and, particularly, work on efficiency could have saved the car makers, I believe.

And another part of the economic crisis can be traced to the building of over-valued, badly financed big homes in new suburbs all over the country. True, a lot of other homes in a lot of other places were financed with bad sub-prime loans, but homes in city cores and older first-ring suburbs (like St Matthews) will rebound well. There are going to be huge developments far out, in places where farms and woods were destroyed, that may never be occupied and may be demolished (I'm not talking just about Louisville here). So that is how I came up with the shorthand, glib, and easily misread statement that 'SUVs and big suburban houses destroyed the country.'

I am not advocating that anyone's SUV be taken away in the night, and no one in the government is advocating any such thing either. A lot of folks here confuse criticism with some kind of tyranny. That kind of reaction and thinking just ends discussion. Nope, I don't like SUVs. Deal with it. I won't sic the Feds on you.


All this is totally tangential to my real and original thesis: that building more highways and bridges downtown will hurt the creative development of the city. A vibrant, attractive downtown is key to attracting smart, enterprising, artistic people, and attracting money to the area. Facillitating running in and out of the downtown area on wide expressways at the expense of the aesthetics of the downtown is not good for any part of Metro Louisville. A living, working population downtown, whether singles, DINKS, Yuppies or freaks, is a valuable goal. If we have outdoor cafes and hip bars and upscale, ethnic, funky restaurants and groceries and bakeries and department stores and drug stores...and maybe some adventurous families with kids... then the whole region benefits!

Making downtown full of concrete and poisons helps no one.

That's my point. It's not about SUVs.

Enough with SUVs already.

I realized I was posted one of the early posts in this thread but after reading it tonight I'm trying to decide what it has to do with food or anything else that is normally discussed in the forum. It seems like the farther we go the farther off topic we're getting. While this thread has some interest I'm not sure this forum is the best place to be discussing it. Maybe we just ought to let it go at this?

[Robin Garr]

I realized I was posted one of the early posts in this thread but after reading it tonight I'm trying to decide what it has to do with food or anything else that is normally discussed in the forum. It seems like the farther we go the farther off topic we're getting. While this thread has some interest I'm not sure this forum is the best place to be discussing it. Maybe we just ought to let it go at this?

Or we could move it into the All About Louisville or Friends & Fun forums, which are specifically designed for off-topic discussions. "All About Louisville" would be a perfect fit. I'll move it, but leave a signpost here so those interested in sticking with the discussion can easily find it.

[Robin Garr]

Thanks for the clarification. I admit to trying to be sarcastic, and apologize that this came across as being snide.

Steve, I appreciate your taking my criticism in good spirits, and that's all I ask. I'm extremely loath to censor this forum, but I do think it works best when everyone approaches discussions - even robust debates - in a civil way that fosters intelligent debate without making people feel irritated or hurt. We can do it!

I'm moving this discussion over to the All About Louisville section now - it's really a better fit there than among the food-and-restaurant topics - but everyone's welcome to have at it, and I'll leave a signpost in this forum so no one will think it's been 86'd.

Steve H... Fair call. And I apologize for the particularly nasty things I said there at the end.

No problem with me, I've got really thick skin.

The 'destruction' I was referring to was the economic meltdown. US manufacturers had put way too many of their eggs in the SUV basket and when gas prices went through the roof, people realized gas guzzlers were probably not the best idea. Had the American people and American auto makers had more foresight, some (obviously not all) of the meltdown could have been avoided. Diversification, and, particularly, work on efficiency could have saved the car makers, I believe.

The American auto manufacturers have been "dead men walking" for years because they're legacy costs make passenger cars unprofitable, and even taking a significant loss on economy cars. They only reason they've continued to make any of them is due to fleet average CAFE requirements. If you look at it this way, the profitable SUVs and trucks have allowed them to continue operating when they otherwise wouldn't have. SUVs saved the American car manufacturers, at least temporarily.

This is due to various factors including union wages, pension commitments, employee medical coverage, and predatory currency devaluations by our trading "partners". Unless the majority of these issues are addressed, the American car industry remains doomed, government bailouts or not.

And another part of the economic crisis can be traced to the building of over-valued, badly financed big homes in new suburbs all over the country. True, a lot of other homes in a lot of other places were financed with bad sub-prime loans, but homes in city cores and older first-ring suburbs (like St Matthews) will rebound well. There are going to be huge developments far out, in places where farms and woods were destroyed, that may never be occupied and may be demolished (I'm not talking just about Louisville here).

Well, I agree with you somewhat. I don't think Louisville will be hit very hard. Our growth has always been moderate, so our corresponding contraction will be moderate.

Another fact you might not have considered is that the sub-prime mortgage craze was not limited to the so called McMansions in the suburbs. A lot of subprimes went to poor folks in the inner cities that wouldn't have otherwise been able to buy their modest homes. Another bunch of subprimes went to condos in inner cities and highly urbanized areas, places that you are advocating. A lot of folks in places like San Franscico, New York, and Miami are gonna be losing their condos. A huge downside of condos, IMHO, is that the remaining owners will often times be stuck with paying maintenance for their whole building, potentially causing successive waves mortgage defaults.

So, you can blame the credit bubble, and plausibly put some responsibility on the Fed, Fannie and Freddie, the Bush tax cuts, the Democrat driven Community Reinvestment act, the endless supply of cheap credit provided by investors in Europe, China, and Japan; but you can't blame the foreclosed McMansion. It is more of a symptom of the disease, not its cause.

A lot of folks here confuse criticism with some kind of tyranny. That kind of reaction and thinking just ends discussion. Nope, I don't like SUVs. Deal with it.

No problems here. Live and let live.

All this is totally tangential to my real and original thesis: that building more highways and bridges downtown will hurt the creative development of the city. A vibrant, attractive downtown is key to attracting smart, enterprising, artistic people, and attracting money to the area. Facillitating running in and out of the downtown area on wide expressways at the expense of the aesthetics of the downtown is not good for any part of Metro Louisville. A living, working population downtown, whether singles, DINKS, Yuppies or freaks, is a valuable goal. If we have outdoor cafes and hip bars and upscale, ethnic, funky restaurants and groceries and bakeries and department stores and drug stores...and maybe some adventurous families with kids... then the whole region benefits!

Making downtown full of concrete and poisons helps no one.

I'm all for downtown development. We may quibble about the details here, but I believe we are in broad agreement. I just think other areas of the city/county shouldn't be underfunded.

The way I understand it, the 8664 folks want to replace the downtown stretch of I-64 with a surface street. I don't see how this adds any green space, or is more pedestrian friendly. Also, their animations never show any traffic. This new parkway will end up carrying as much traffic as Dixie Highway or Shelbyville Road, so I honestly don't see much advantage to it over just leaving the already paid for I-64 in place.

I'm not a big fan of the Spaghetti Junction redesign either. It seems like a lot of overkill. I think we could both get 90% of what we want by just completing the East End Bridge and the I-265 extension in Jeffersonville. The way I understand it (folks, correct me if I'm wrong), these projects where tied together with some politicing by the River Fields folks. Their hope is to make the whole combined monstrosity so expensive and complicated that nothing would ever by built anywhere.

Excellent.

You are absolutely right: the auto industry was already a house of cards. The "SUV meets $4 Gas" moment was just the puff of wind that toppled the whole mess. And you are right the McMansions were and are only one segment of the housing fiasco.

Still, I like using the SUV/McMansion stereotype as a symbol of a kind of wasteful lifestyle that all of us feel the effects of. I think most people would agree that long hours spent driving to and from work - alone in an inefficient car... living on a large plot of land kept as an expanse of green using chemicals that pollute our ground water... living without walkable retail or socializing... razing farms and woods for such places... all these things might not be good in the long run, and that living smaller and smarter and closer and more connected might be better for our pocketbooks, environment, and souls.

As far as Louisville itself is concerned, you are right that there are plenty of other places where we could spend big money. The South End, where I grew up, is a beautiful area, especially the Southern Parkway strip, Iroquois Park, and Kenwood Hills. I would love to see more investment there. It is now the starting point for many immigrants. The second generations will help make the city of the future. (Louisville's absolutely best Asian restaurant is out there, in sight of Rutherford Elementary where I went to school).

And, of course, the West End needs jobs and groceries and support for small businesses. It is isolated economically, socially, and geographically. Which brings me back around to downtown: the more downtown comes alive and vibrant, the more that life will ooze westward. I'd love to see a large, permanent public market somewhere west of, say, 7th or 8th.

As for our original topic, I really agree about the East End bridge. Forget scrapping 64: just build an East bridge and see what happens. I know the rich folk over there don't want that bridge, but hey, the people around Cherokee Park adjusted when 64 first blasted through.

Get a bike

I tried my best to get a few on HWY 42 this weekend...but kept missing. I did manage to give a couple the "horn treatment" from 8 inches away however.

WHOA !!! I'm trying to read this thread but all this crazy talk is making me swimmy headed.

Get a bike

I tried my best to get a few on HWY 42 this weekend...but kept missing. I did manage to give a couple the "horn treatment" from 8 inches away however.

Please note that it is illegal (for some unknown reason) to hit bikers. However if you get real close and go fast you can blow them over.

You know, I should just ignore you all. I'm sure you'll just dismiss me as some liberal whiner. Fine. I'm 63 years old. My name is Ken Wilson. If you want to come beat up an old man to prove your dick is bigger than your brain, fine. But, you know, I just don't think joking about death and injury to bikers is appropriate in the forum. I know... you're good ole boys just jokin'... but, well, people like you endanger pedestrians and bikers and other cars all the time. I know your type.


Go away, scum.

Sorry, Robin. Take off this discussion if you want to.

Ken, I don't think you're a "liberal whiner" - and I have a framed copy of your avatar on my living room wall.

I'm sure Steve didn't mean any harm, but he may not have realized that HotBytes regular Leah S's son-in-law was recently a victim of a car-vs.-bike accident that resulted in her SIL's sense of taste being taken away (we hope temporarily) - and he's in the food industry!

Serenity now, everyone.

Thank you for that, Marsha. There have been others who have died... people in the food business... this way. It's just not funny.

Yes, we also lost Jen Futrell, a cook at Baxter Station, earlier this year to a car vs. bike accident. Many cooks can't afford cars or the gas to go in them, and we should all think twice about disparaging a nearby bike rider as we drive, because they might be cooking your dinner some time this week!

Ken, I don't think you're a "liberal whiner" - and I have a framed copy of your avatar on my living room wall.

I'm sure Steve didn't mean any harm, but he may not have realized that HotBytes regular Leah S's son-in-law was recently a victim of a car-vs.-bike accident that resulted in her SIL's sense of taste being taken away (we hope temporarily) - and he's in the food industry!

Serenity now, everyone.

Me ? Hell, I -never- mean any harm (SINCERE apologies to Leah S., etc)...I'm just here to learn a little bit about L'ville and sometimes lighten things up on the occasion when (some) folks get a little high on their horse. So if it bugs you, just ignore the man behind the curtain.

As far as this "subject" goes Ken makes some fairly decent points...Although a person with more interest in this debate than myself could counter many of the arguments. Personally, I'm liberal in many of my attitudes (coming from MN what ELSE can I be) but that being said I believe in live and let live. If people want to live in the suburbs and enjoy that lifestyle then I think that's a great thing and no one should be second guessing their choice/s in life.