Perceptions of Louisville

As the mother of a career Navy pilot, whose brother, sister-inlaw, father and grandfather are all veterans, I, too, thank Michelle for her well worded sentiments.

Great post Michelle R. on the military...If only more people on this forum understood that...But believe me this forum is not the norm....no matter how much they try to tell you they are.

[Robin Garr]

I've held my tongue long enough.

This is a really tough issue, and Michelle, I'd like to thank you for stating your opinion both strongly and politely. That earns respect in anyone's book.

I'm sorry you haven't been enjoying this part of the forum, but I would point out that "All About Louisville" is specifically here for off-topic discussions, including, from time to time, political issues. I do want to keep politics and all non-food/drink discussion off the main forum, and would appreciate a pointer from anyone when I fail to do that. But over here in this room, there's room for debate, as long as we keep it clean.

On the military topic, I almost hate to wade in, but I do think your point deserves to be addressed. And I think I'm qualified to do it, having served as an Air Force officer during another controversial war, the one in Vietnam.

I don't believe anyone here, even the Thunder critics, is short on admiration for the men and women in uniform who defend us. But during this highly controversial Iraq adventure, a lot of politicans who chose to dodge their generation's war are now sending young men and women to die, and to kill other men and women, in a war that a small majority of Americans oppose, and in which most of the rest of the world considers us an unprovoked aggressor.

This is a lousy, lousy situation for everybody involved, and excuse me if I say that I'll shake the hand of a service person but will also argue that the only proper way to support these troops is to bring them home as soon as we possibly can.

To argue that Americans who oppose the war, or its glorification, are unpatriotic or are failing to "support the troops" is simply not fair, and I'll take a stand on that.

I hope nothing here seems un-civil, but it just seems really important to me to draw a bright line between supporting men and women in uniform and supporting the War in Iraq or, for that matter, the way that this administration set up and operates its entire global "war on terror."

And the previous adminisration for doing absolutly nothing about it...Thanks Bill..

Robin, that was well said too. I most certainly do not support this war nor did I ever vote for this President. But I am most proud of my son, and I do support the troops. Let's get them home. He served one tour in Afghanistan and that is more than enough!

However, I think one of the reason he choose to be a pilot is that he grew up going to air shows just like some people go to car races. The great majority of the air shows that we went to were not miliary in nature, and as someone said earlier, not all of the airplanes at Thunder are military.

Wow this forum got serious fast, as we sometimes do.
When I think of Thunder I remember when it was held in the back parking lot of Oxmoor and it was nothing more than fireworks and pick-nick blankets. I think our city powers that be realized that if it were moved down town it could entertain more people and they could sell ...stuff. Then it went from starting at sundown to starting earlier in the day so they could sell MORE stuff. But you have to entertain several thousand people wandering around just waiting for the fireworks to start so an air show seemed like a good answer. I can't recall how long the airshow has been going on, maybe someone else can but I don't think we were always at war during all of those years. I think it was always intended as a thank you to the armed services. Maybe that's changed.

As far as 4th Street Live goes I'm just glad there's SOMETHING down there at all. Michael you wouldn't believe what a wasteland it was during the 70s -90s. Now at least there is somewhere to go DT, somethings to do and some places to eat or have a decent drink.

What Robin said.

As for the previous administration, the common, current refrain that Clinton etc. did nothing about terrorism (except perhaps fail to label it with the catchy phrase "war on terror") has been refuted again and again. And it's really sort of dishonest to continue to perpetuate that myth, especially given their efforts to warn the current administration of the threat only to be brushed off and ignored, as was embarrassingly noted during the questioning of Condoleeza Rice during the 9/11 hearings -- anybody here read the transcripts? listen to the televised sections of that when Rice was asked to read aloud the Clinton administration memos addressed to the new Bush administration about those threats? Startling, those admissions. And the look on her face.... Man was she hacked off, exposed like that in front of god and everybody.

Anybody remember when Clinton was accused of trying to divert the country's attention from Lewinsky-gate when he ordered a foray into Afghanistan against bin Laden?... I do.... So I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

There is also the bald evidence of Bush's performances in his debates with Al Gore when he said again and again that foreign policy work was going to be next to nothing during his administration because, in his words, the United States should not meddle in the business of other countries nor involve itself in "nation building" (his words) and poo-pooed the notion that any of us might have a stake in doing that and effectively made Al Gore appear to be a hyper-intellectual, nervous nelly for suggesting it was an important issue and that during his administration, unlike the one before his, he was going to butt out and that the Clinton administration had been flawed for not doing so.

To oppose this administration's invasion of Iraq is not to be anti-military. The "war" in Iraq is doing nothing for my "freedoms," was founded on a pack of lies, and has diverted resources from the actual source of the attack of 9/11.

Not only that, fighting isn't always the only way to achieve freedom or human rights (not to mention to start a war out of a pack of lies should be a criminal offense, not merely an impeachable one).

Women, for example, never formed armies to win the right to vote and to be considered full citizens in this country and others. They did it through diplomacy and by making a whole lot of noise (and sometimes being major pains in the butt to boot, thank god).

If I sound harsh or crabby in that previous message, my apologies. And though I really do believe the military has a place in the world, I and others also believe we have at least an equal place in the world and take very seriously things like, say, the Constitution which guarantees me my freedoms in this country, and which doesn't say that those freedoms are necessarily predicated by means of force and guns.

The argument that people are busy killing each other every day for my freedoms is for me the grossest insult against humanity.

First off, with all due respect, I am not anti-military regarding soldiers who have served honorably. I am anti-military regarding how those in power have continually and irresponsibly misused troops for the sake of imperialism. There's a clear distinction between the two. Two-time Medal of Honor winner Smedley Butler put it much better back in 1933 (and do you think it's gotten better over the last 70 years?) http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm

Regarding 4th Street Live, (can't wait to see what's next on Clay Street Live!) sure there are people who like going there. But...it's the kind of thing Indianapolis or Fort Wayne would do. I see Louisville as a city with so much potential, history, architecture, and culture and it should aim higher. If Fourth Street Live is what it took to spur things on downtown, so be it (when did Main Street between 1st and 2nd become the dead zone?). Frankly, regarding what is and isn't downtown, I am merely offering opinions, same as anyone else. Everyone has certain aspects that they hope are either amplified or played down. There are probably people that would like there to be a 4th Street Live feel (complete with "gerbil tubes" so that you never have to deal with pesky fresh air) from the river back to Broadway. There are also people like me who are repulsed by such a thing. In the end, both sides get a bit of what they want.

For those who are politicizing all this (and by the way, over Thanksgiving, the family members most vocally anti-Bush and the Iraq war were actually solid Republicans who are disgusted over the last seven years of this administration and what Bush/Cheney have done to the party) it is a fact that the stagnant cities in this country are the regressive ones culturally and politically and the vibrant ones are just the opposite.

That said, since someone (someone with an Emma Goldman quote goes to Thunder?!...shouldn't it be an Alexander Berkman quote?...just kidding)
asked, we moved here from New Orleans (having grown up in northeast Indiana) for the sake of necessity. Other cities in the running were Austin, Chicago, Savannah, etc. Pretty much the city features mentioned as "pros" (with good additions from others of things erringly left out) were the reasons for coming to Louisville, with certain aspects having certainly more proportionate weight. This city has so much potential.

Hey hey hey!! I bet Emma would LOVE a good fireworks display.
Maybe I'll make my own quote...
"If I can't watch sparkly things in the sky without being called an imperialist I want no part in your revolution!"

I've held my tongue long enough.

This is a really tough issue, and Michelle, I'd like to thank you for stating your opinion both strongly and politely. That earns respect in anyone's book.

I'm sorry you haven't been enjoying this part of the forum, but I would point out that "All About Louisville" is specifically here for off-topic discussions, including, from time to time, political issues. I do want to keep politics and all non-food/drink discussion off the main forum, and would appreciate a pointer from anyone when I fail to do that. But over here in this room, there's room for debate, as long as we keep it clean.

On the military topic, I almost hate to wade in, but I do think your point deserves to be addressed. And I think I'm qualified to do it, having served as an Air Force officer during another controversial war, the one in Vietnam.

I don't believe anyone here, even the Thunder critics, is short on admiration for the men and women in uniform who defend us. But during this highly controversial Iraq adventure, a lot of politicans who chose to dodge their generation's war are now sending young men and women to die, and to kill other men and women, in a war that a small majority of Americans oppose, and in which most of the rest of the world considers us an unprovoked aggressor.

This is a lousy, lousy situation for everybody involved, and excuse me if I say that I'll shake the hand of a service person but will also argue that the only proper way to support these troops is to bring them home as soon as we possibly can.

To argue that Americans who oppose the war, or its glorification, are unpatriotic or are failing to "support the troops" is simply not fair, and I'll take a stand on that.

I hope nothing here seems un-civil, but it just seems really important to me to draw a bright line between supporting men and women in uniform and supporting the War in Iraq or, for that matter, the way that this administration set up and operates its entire global "war on terror."

First off, I WAS indeed aware that I strolled into the political section of the board. That being said, some of the threads in other sections have begun to take a decidedly political turn.

I come here to discuss food and have fun, not be preached at by members of either party about what I should believe, or how I should vote.

There were some surprisingly nasty and un-civil comments made in the Library thread about how anyone who voted against the tax was against libraries, or was socially retarded. I found those comments to be both offensive, and irresponsible.

That being said, I don't believe that anywhere in my post did I insinuate that anyone was unpatriotic. I'm just sick and tired of the sniping and rhetoric.

As for Vietnam, my father was in the war, as was my father in law. My dad was really messed up for a really long time over what happened there, and still has lasting effects from his time there. I don't remember Vietnam, as I wasn't born until after it was over.

War sucks for all involved. I don't think anyone is pro war. I just think it's ridiculous to say that Thunder is all about basically stroking military ego. I think it's about celebrating our city, and Derby, no more and no less. I LIKE to see the planes. I LIKE to see the fireworks. I LOVE the look of pure wonder my 5 year old niece gets on her face when the planes fly over, and the fireworks go off. If that makes me an ignorant, redneck, unedumacated southerner, so be it.

Michael, I believe that you are the one who politicized it in the beginning by this comment:

Con:

1. Thunder Over Louisville. Downright embarrassing, this is a steroid-ish flying ad for a U.S. military that primarily exists to increase international market share for bankers and corporations.

Fireworks are one thing, but if Emma Goldman were in her heyday now and went to the "aircraft" portion of Thunder...well, let's just say that there would be more commotion than a certain grandmother caused at a Beatles tribute show!

Like I said, Thunder, for me , is about the fireworks. It's been about the fireworks now for almost 33 years , long before there ever was an air show.

I'm not trying to come across as nasty, I'm just really sick of the sniping and fighting. On both sides. Politics and lawsuits are tearing this country into shreds, and I'm just tired of it. It makes me very sad.

It will never end until we get a third party...It will only get worse...IMO