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Sobriety Checkpoints

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John Hagan

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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:39 pm

I found this to be somewhat of an interesting read. Just the first couple of paragraphs here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights


Legal rights (sometimes also called civil rights or statutory rights) are rights conveyed by a particular polity, codified into legal statutes by some form of legislature (or unenumerated but implied from enumerated rights), and as such are contingent upon local laws, customs, or beliefs. In contrast, natural rights (also called moral rights or unalienable rights) are rights which are not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of a particular society or polity. Natural rights are thus necessarily universal, whereas legal rights are culturally and politically relative.

Blurring the lines between natural and legal rights, U.S. statesman James Madison believed that some rights, such as trial by jury, are social rights, arising neither from natural law nor from positive law but from the social contract from which a government derives its authority.[1]
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Steve P » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:40 pm

John,

WHOA !!! So what's that mean in simple language ? :?
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:47 pm

JustinHammond wrote:Unless your drunk or carrying drugs the checkpoint isn't going to be a problem. I think/know they consist of what Steve said happened to him. The cops ask if you have been drinking and you answer,look, and smell fine and go on your way. I don't see that as an invasion of privacy. Going through airport security is more of an invasion of privacy to me than a checkpoint.
t


OK, taking your point and what Nimbus had said earlier about
"Your "right" to drive goes away when you get drunk. And your right to drive is totally trumped by my right to life...." what is different about the cops walking up to you on the street and asking you for a urine sample and checking you for guns and weapons? Is it Ok to have your rights violated just so I can feel more safe knowing your not high and carrying a gun? After all, if your not high and you dont have an illegal weapon,whats the problem?
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:51 pm

Steve P wrote:John,

WHOA !!! So what's that mean in simple language ? :?


Well, it goes back to the argument the Nimbus made saying his "unalienable rights" trump my "civil rights". Just an interesting read on the subject.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by JustinHammond » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:22 pm

John Hagan wrote:
JustinHammond wrote:Unless your drunk or carrying drugs the checkpoint isn't going to be a problem. I think/know they consist of what Steve said happened to him. The cops ask if you have been drinking and you answer,look, and smell fine and go on your way. I don't see that as an invasion of privacy. Going through airport security is more of an invasion of privacy to me than a checkpoint.
t


OK, taking your point and what Nimbus had said earlier about
"Your "right" to drive goes away when you get drunk. And your right to drive is totally trumped by my right to life...." what is different about the cops walking up to you on the street and asking you for a urine sample and checking you for guns and weapons? Is it Ok to have your rights violated just so I can feel more safe knowing your not high and carrying a gun? After all, if your not high and you dont have an illegal weapon,whats the problem?


I don't see a cop asking me if I'm drunk as a violation of my rights. If I'm out driving around at 3:00 in the morning I probably am drunk. I guess my expectation of privacy diminishes when I am on a public roadway in the middle of the night and the night is generally full of crazies and drunks.
If I'm just walking down the street and carrying a gun while high or drunk the odds of me accidentally killing someone are far less than driving while drunk.
Sounds like another conversation to be had over beers at BBC. I just hope there is not a roadblock set up downtown.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:40 pm

JustinHammond wrote:If I'm just walking down the street and carrying a gun while high or drunk the odds of me accidentally killing someone are far less than driving while drunk.
Sounds like another conversation to be had over beers at BBC. I just hope there is not a roadblock set up downtown.


So were going to decide how many exceptions to the forth amendment can be made based on "odds" of people getting hurt? I have been to several neighborhoods where the "odds" of getting shanked or shot are pretty good,compared to other areas. I dont think my desire to feel safe in those areas should be a reason for warrant less searches. My point here is that playing around with our rights is a slippery slope.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Nimbus Couzin » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:15 pm

John Hagan wrote:
JustinHammond wrote:If I'm just walking down the street and carrying a gun while high or drunk the odds of me accidentally killing someone are far less than driving while drunk.
Sounds like another conversation to be had over beers at BBC. I just hope there is not a roadblock set up downtown.


So were going to decide how many exceptions to the forth amendment can be made based on "odds" of people getting hurt? I have been to several neighborhoods where the "odds" of getting shanked or shot are pretty good,compared to other areas. I dont think my desire to feel safe in those areas should be a reason for warrant less searches. My point here is that playing around with our rights is a slippery slope.


It is a slippery slope John, I fully agree. And as I said, I'm fully opposed to the wonderfully titled "patriot act" (thus implying that you're not patriotic if you oppose it).

But if there is a high probablity of a criminal act that will harm others, isn't it the responsibility of the police to at least investigate? I think that odds do matter. The tricky part is what defines "high probability."

Yeah, checkpoints are kind of lame. But driving a five thousand piece of metal down the road is potentially very dangerous, so I don't agree with your comparison to stopping people walking down the street and searching them. Walking down the street is NOT an inherently dangerous act. We do need to retain protection of privacy. I don't see stopping a car and asking the driver if he/she has been drinking as taking away our privacy. If you want more privacy, stay home, and stay off the roadways.We do have some hermits in society. But society entails agreeing to some common rules (laws) that most of us agree to in order to all live together successfully.

Nobody here is advocating warrantless searches.

Here's raw news video of my dead friend's car after his crash http://www.wlky.com/video/20991371/index.html . Watch it. Thankfully, nobody else was hurt. It is all about balancing rights. Your right not to be inconvenienced doesn't trump my right to live.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Nimbus Couzin » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:27 pm

Here's the Charter of Fundamental Rights (summary), just enacted a few months ago by the European Union. It covers a lot....(details are easy to find). (right to life is the first one, by the way)

"The Charter contains some 54 articles divided into seven titles. The first six titles deal with substantive rights under the headings: dignity, freedoms, equality, solidarity, citizens' rights and justice, while the last title deals with the interpretation and application of the Charter. Much of Charter is based on the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), the case-law of the European Court of Justice and pre-existing provisions of European Union law.

* The first title, dignity, guarantees the right to life and prohibits torture, slavery and the death penalty. Its provisions are mostly based on the ECHR, although Article 1 closely reflects Article 1 of the German Basic Law.

* The second title covers liberty, privacy, marriage, thought, expression, assembly, education, work, property and asylum.

* The third title covers equality, the rights of children and the elderly.

* The fourth title covers social and workers' rights including the right to fair working conditions, protection against unjustified dismissal, and access to health care.

* The fifth title covers the rights of the EU citizens such as the right to vote in election to the European Parliament and to move freely within the EU. In also includes several administrative rights such as a right to good administration, to access documents and to petition the European Parliament.

* The sixth title covers justice issues such as the right to an effective remedy, a fair trial, to the presumption of innocence, the principle of legality, non-retrospectivity and double jeopardy.

* The seventh title concerns the interpretation and application of the Charter. These issues are dealt with above."

Here's the full text (though it is an older version) http://www.europarl.europa.eu/charter/pdf/text_en.pdf (skip the Gaelic language at the beginning)
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:20 pm

Nimbus Couzin wrote:Here's raw news video of my dead friend's car after his crash http://www.wlky.com/video/20991371/index.html . Watch it. Thankfully, nobody else was hurt. It is all about balancing rights. Your right not to be inconvenienced doesn't trump my right to live.


Thats a tough vid. I am sorry for your loss. I think you over simplified the issue when you used the term "inconvenienced".The removal of my constitutional rights that people fought and died for seems of greater importance than an "inconvenience". Its the same argument that Bush made with the Patriot act. The good that comes to society outweighs the infringement of peoples constitutional rights. I agree with you it is about balancing rights. I dont have an answer as to what that balance should be. I dont know how many exceptions to the fourth amendment we can make before its too many. I have not been able to find anything conclusive as to the effectiveness of these check points as far as preventing DD. It would help ease my concern if I had a way to judge the overall impact of these,thus providing a better way to evaluate the balance between the two. We all know this will never stop DD. If it saves even one life, I suppose one can make the argument thats enough to warrant it. I dont know.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Carla G » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:10 pm

I think if the police really wanted to be difficult Steve still could have gotten a ticket for the root beer. If I remember right, the law states drinking and driving but doesn't specify alcohol. So drinking ANYTHING while driving is against the law. Good thing Steve was his charming self huh?
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Greenup » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:32 pm

Carla G wrote:I think if the police really wanted to be difficult Steve still could have gotten a ticket for the root beer. If I remember right, the law states drinking and driving but doesn't specify alcohol. So drinking ANYTHING while driving is against the law. Good thing Steve was his charming self huh?


Actually, Carla, the law DOES specifically prohibit driving under the influence of alcohol, "...or any other substance which impairs one's driving ability..." (KRS 189A.010(1)(d))....so, if you get a buzz from root beer, I guess it could fall under the statute... 8)
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by JustinHammond » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:39 pm

I'm just tired of people thinking the constitution is the end all of our rights and laws. It was written over 200 years ago and lots of things have changed. The founding fathers couldn't have foreseen the invention of the cars and guns we have today, things have to change with the times. The most important thing they knew was that they didn't know everything, thus amendments. Plus, nowhere does the constitution guarantee our right to privacy. The 4th amendment hints at it, but never says it.

“ The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ”

Nothing in there about asking a person if they have been drinking.

It is just not a big deal to me if cops want to stop cars and check for drunk drivers. I'm sure I would still be driving my drunk ass all over Louisville if it wasn't for a few of my friends getting DUI's. If you want checkpoints to go away, get rid of the drunk drivers.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Steve P » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:40 pm

Carla G wrote:Good thing Steve was his charming self huh?


...Hmmmmmmm. I think that might have been a compliment. Then again. :?
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by Matthew D » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:17 pm

To get back to Steve's question about where these occur....

I've never seen one locally, but I hear the general area where Bardstown and Taylorsville come together tends to be a hot spot for checkpoints. I doubt they do it at that very intersection, but just south of there (Assumption HS area) seems to make sense. The State and local police do release press releases announcing "increased presence" and will sometimes announce plans for checkpoints. Although they don't tend to announce locations, from what I remember.

Moving on....

I've probably posted this numerous times on this board in some fashion (and I'm always very careful how I word it), but I think it's important to realize that the .08 DUI level has come about because of the very, very powerful lobbying arm of MADD. While the majority of serious accidents involving drinking and driving involve drivers with a (significantly) higher BAC, the lobbying has been so intense that it seems the point now is not to find a comfortable threshold number but, instead, to see exactly how low the number can get (regardless of at what point impairment happens). Even the idea of impairment is complicated, because, although we can all have "I don't drive after X drinks," our bodies react differently everytime we consume alcohol (not to mention that BAC increases even after one has stopped drinking).

I'm not really interested in waging a war against MADD, but I am very, very interested in how a certain BAC level compares to other forms of distracted driving. As a cyclist, I am MUCH more concerned about texting and driving because it happens every minute, of every hour, of every day. Point being, MADD would never give another dollar to whatever politician sponsored the study comparing drinking after moderate drinks with texting while driving, but I'd be interested in the results.
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Re: Sobriety Checkpoints

by John Hagan » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:30 pm

Any thoughts on the use of check points to check immigration/nationality status? I know the sheriff dept is doing it in Phoenix.
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