Paris, Cafe Life, Placemaking, 8664, Bridges and Food

In general, minivans do not get better mileage than SUVs.

If you're talking vehicles with similar seating capacity, I don't think you're correct. For instance a Toyota Sienna gets about 25% better city mpg than a Ford Explorer.

The Sienna is a lot better than a Sequoia, but the gap is closer with the Highlander.

I'm not arguing that there are not good reasons for some to get SUVs. What I am suggesting is that choice of vehicle in the US for many is tied up with what it says about my identity.

What I am suggesting is that choice of vehicle in the US for many is tied up with what it says about my identity.

When has this ever not been true?
Should we also disparage Corvettes and Mustangs?

Get a bike

What I am suggesting is that choice of vehicle in the US for many is tied up with what it says about my identity.

When has this ever not been true?
Should we also disparage Corvettes and Mustangs?

It's always been true. You were making a case based on utility ("must not have kids", towing capacity).

I'd love to live in Colorado and do enough kayaking, cycling, etc. to need an off-road capable SUV.

Your plea to Live and Let Live implies that our economic choices have no consequences. They do. The further out people live, the more they live in places where they must drive to everything, the more they use inefficient cars, the greater the pull on all our resources, and the worse (especially in a valley like ours) the effect on our air.

If those folks pay for their own cars, and buy their own gas, and pay their own gasoline taxes to build/maintain infrastructure, they it's none of your business.

Do I expect everyone to live in a downtown area? Nope. I don't. I live in St. Matthews, an old suburb now part of the Metro. It is a good, old-fashioned neighborhood. My son and his family (including two little kids) live here, too. An amazing number of retail shops, everyday retail shops, good restaurants, are within a walk, a bike ride, or a nickle's worth of gas. I lived half of my life in Rochester NY, where my wife and I raised two sons. Our kids played in the neighborhood and we could walk to shops. I taught in a city school and my kids went to public schools. It didn't feel like any kind of sacrifice.

So, your life is the epitome of virtue? Anyone who lives outside the line bounded by your property line is using too many resources?

I understand the pull of the suburbs, and I don't want to demonize those who live there. What I want to do is call people's attention to the direction change can take. The more we make our downtown and surrounding neighborhoods livable and attractive, the more it benefits all of us. Those DINKs and singles are the coming lifeblood of a city. They help the economy, create jobs, support businesses and the arts. More and more, they won't come if the downtown area sucks, if there is no cafe life, no scene. I'm 63, and I want those creative young people here - downtown, in my 'hood, in places where no one wanted to live. I want their energy around me.

Fine. Improve your neighborhood all you want. I have no problem with this. Make it so attractive folks would be crazy to live in the suburbs. This would be their free choice though. That's "Live and let live".

I live near Iroquois Park, closer to downtown than where my Father grew up in what was then rural Jefferson County out on New Cut road, and closer in than where I grew up out in Valley Station. Do I get virtue points for back filling? Since my house is a little further out than Old St, Matthews, I'm I still an urban sprawler? Does the divider between virtue and sin run along your property line?

What I am suggesting is that choice of vehicle in the US for many is tied up with what it says about my identity.

When has this ever not been true?
Should we also disparage Corvettes and Mustangs?

It's always been true. You were making a case based on utility ("must not have kids", towing capacity).

I'd love to live in Colorado and do enough kayaking, cycling, etc. to need an off-road capable SUV.

Who better to judge the utility of a vehicle than the person paying for it? Do your really want to submit your choice of vehicles to a government office for approval? Are you angling for this job?

Seriously. What do you anti-SUV types really want? Do you want them to be banned? What about conversion vans? Should they be banned too? Pick-up trucks without a clear business need? Banned? What do you think the government policy imposing your animus would look like?

Jeez, am I sorry I mentioned SUVs. They aren't the point. I thought I might be able to carry on an intelligent discussion about this idea on a forum like this. I usually enjoy the talk here, but ... jeez...

Steve H... you remind me of those people you stand next to at a concert... they're screaming into their cell phone about nothing at all during a quiet song. You ask them to please be quiet, and they get red in the face screaming I paid for my ticket, too. And the law says I can have a cell phone, and I own it and I can use it, and why don't you mind your own business and get a life... In other words, grown people whose ethical compass got broken when they were 15 and Mom told them to take out the garbage.

[Robin Garr]

Seriously. What do you anti-SUV types really want? Do you want them to be banned? What about conversion vans? Should they be banned too? Pick-up trucks without a clear business need? Banned? What do you think the government policy imposing your animus would look like?

Steve, Ken makes a good point. This thread has been largely civil. It is possible to carry on a robust discussion without personal attacks, and we prefer that approach in these parts. Please give it a try.

Seriously. What do you anti-SUV types really want? Do you want them to be banned? What about conversion vans? Should they be banned too? Pick-up trucks without a clear business need? Banned? What do you think the government policy imposing your animus would look like?

Steve, Ken makes a good point. This thread has been largely civil. It is possible to carry on a robust discussion without personal attacks, and we prefer that approach in these parts. Please give it a try.

Sorry if I was being uncivil. I'm confused though. Which part of my reply was a personal attack? Or inaccurate?

What do you think the government policy imposing your animus would look like?

A very good point, especially considering the fact that the problem seems to be taking care of itself.

When gas prices went up, people started thinking twice about buying large vehicles. Car dealerships began advertising campaigns to laud the virtues of environmentally friendly cars.

The end result is that being green is now becoming hip, and large SUV's are increasingly seen as boorish.

This doesn't mean that everyone will automatically forsake their large vehicles, begin recycling, and dine local. The process takes time. Expecting everyone to automatically espouse your viewpoint, no matter how enlightened, is naive. Worse still is the person who expects the government to impose their own definition of what is right upon everyone else. Down that road lies tyranny.

We have to take the time to explain our views to other people and educate them on the environmental and financial impact of their decisions. What we mustn't do is wield our ideas and initiatives like cudgels with which we intend to hammer good sense into the heads of others.

[Robin Garr]

Sorry if I was being uncivil. I'm confused though. Which part of my reply was a personal attack? Or inaccurate?

Steve, to be honest, it's more a matter of tone than content. There is a consistent undercurrent in your remarks to Ken that comes across to me as, well, snide.

Random shots:

"Do your really want to submit your choice of vehicles to a government office for approval? Are you angling for this job?"

"So, your life is the epitome of virtue? Anyone who lives outside the line bounded by your property line is using too many resources?"

The problem here is a tone that, uttered face to face in a bar, would risk starting a fight. This is a virtual bar, and the barkeep doesn't like fights.

We'll save "jumps to unwarranted conclusions" for another day, but as another example, I don't believe anyone even suggested banning SUVs until you brought it up.

Sorry if I was being uncivil. I'm confused though. Which part of my reply was a personal attack? Or inaccurate?

Steve, to be honest, it's more a matter of tone than content. There is a consistent undercurrent in your remarks to Ken that comes across to me as, well, snide.

Thanks for the clarification. I admit to trying to be sarcastic, and apologize that this came across as being snide.

Might I make another point of clarification...

Ken is the one that held forth his personal situation as an aspirational, virtuous example. This after the implication that others who make different choices, like driving SUVs and living in the suburbs (and getting mortgages?), have almost destroyed our society. I wast just trying to understand precisely where Ken thinks the dividing line is between virtuous (inner suburb) and sinful (outer suburb, SUV driving).

Obviously my writing skills are not up to this task.

Jeez, am I sorry I mentioned SUVs. They aren't the point. I thought I might be able to carry on an intelligent discussion about this idea on a forum like this. I usually enjoy the talk here, but ... jeez...

You know Ken, I think we got off on the wrong foot. And we probably agree more they we disagree.

I think you really wanted to talk about how to develop livable communities. That could be an interesting topic. The thing is, some of us think the suburbs ARE livable. So when you talk about how SUVs and outer suburbs and exburbs are destroying society, you really shouldn't be surprised that some might be offended. Talking about livable communities is possible without denigrating other peoples life style choices.

I like my bloated, ugly house in the suburbs. Never drove an SUV though. Does that make me quasi evil?

hmmmm...I kind of like my bloated ugly house in the suburbs too...and I drive a mini-SUV (29 MPG). So I guess I'm full blown evil...but then we all knew THAT already.

Do your really want to submit your choice of vehicles to a government office for approval? Are you angling for this job?

I didn't know the job was available. I'm in!