Welcome to the Louisville Restaurants Forum, a civil place for the intelligent discussion of the local restaurant scene and just about any other topic related to food and drink in and around Louisville.
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Bill P » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:22 pm

This has probably been covered here previously, but I just don't understand wine pricing in many restaurants. I've increasingly been seeing bottles priced at 2-3 times retail. That means that a bottle that retails* for $20 is listed for upwards of $60. You can do the arithmetic probably better than I can. I'm not talking about wines that have been properly stored and aged which rightfully deserve some reasonable premium. Rather, I'm talking about recently released vintages.

What are the increased costs associated with wine service that can possibly justify these types of mark ups on "premium wines", which I will define as those with a retail price >$20?

My solution is to dine out less often and take advantage of wines from my cellar, or when I dine out, drink other beverages.

* I suspect restaurants pay less than retail for their wine so the mark up is ever greater.

Bill
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

{ RANK }

Forum host

Posts

23215

Joined

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Location

Crescent Hill

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:53 pm

Bill, it's a complicated issue, and it's been debated both here and on WLDG (and in lots of other places, I'm sure).

The bottom line is that the restaurant business is a risky, unpredictable business in which creative people (and their backers) operate on thin margins. A number of standard practices have evolved to make the numbers work. One is tipping (another topic for a separate hot topic); another is looking to the bar - speaking more broadly than wine alone - as a profit center.

Yes, restaurants expect a significant share of their income from wine, beer and liquor, and yes, there's a high markup on a product that requires relatively little value added. You'll see some restaurateurs talk about the costs of inventorying a selection of wines; doubly an issue for the rare eatery with a cellar. That's somewhat legit, although it certainly does not account for the full markup. You'll also hear some talk about the cost of training staff, service and glassware, yada yada.

No, the numbers don't add up, IF you are a canny consumer who knows his wine and knows what you pay for it to drink it at home.

But it's the way the system works, and while it's not something that gets talked about often (what business do you know of where the entrepreneur does chat casually about his business plan?), it's no secret, either. It's standard across the industry, and frankly, it's the primary reason why most restaurateurs fight efforts to bring BYO legislation in states that don't have it.

Most diners don't care, and that includes wine geeks. I've made my own peace with it, and my personal strategy for dining out with wine is to favor places with decent lists that include good QPR choices. I'm willing, if not happy, to spend $20 to $30 for a wine that I know retails for $10 to $15. That's the way the system works, and since I enjoy the dining-out experience, I pay the price, knowing that the steak on my plate cost about four times what it would have cost me at the farmers' market, too, and that all the chef really did was sear it, burn it and put it on my plate. <shrug>

You are correct, too, about restaurants buying wholesale. Generally speaking, my rule of thumb for a fair restaurant price - assuming acceptance of the system in general - is that the restaurant pays $7 for a wine that retails at $10, and will sell it for $20. If the restaurant chooses to sell it for $15, they earn a Happy Point from me. If they sell it for $30, I'll go with a beer or iced tea.

But the bottom line is this, Bill: It's not really something to rant about. It's how the restaurant makes its books balance and stays in business for your entertainment. If you choose to dine out at nice restaurants, it's part of the deal. It's a capitalist system, and bless it ... if the restaurant makes money, it stays in business and continues to entertain me.

This would be a great topic for Marsha's monthly Industry Standard column, although come to think about it, since I just wrote it, maybe I ought to make a column out of it myself. :D
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Bill P » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:55 pm

My rant was more directed at the increasingly practice of charging 3X retail. Sure the wine mark up subsidizes the "Cola Crowd", but only to the extent that consumers will tolerate this. More and more, I have chosen to forgo wine when I feel the pricing is out of line and/or will not return to these places. It certainly can't benefit the bottom line if I drink water or don't return. Of course, all this assumes I'm a rational consumer and the restaurant is a rational entity as well...one, or both, of these assumptions could be wrong.
Perhaps, just perhaps, with the sluggish economy and the high rate of business failures, it is time to re-visit some of the standard practices/business models.
I'll drop it there as I sense you are not completely comfortable with discussion here or that it has been discussed here previously. I'm a relative newbie here, so i apologize if this topic has been beaten to death before.
Take care,
no avatar
User

Kurt R.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

509

Joined

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:08 am

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Kurt R. » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:01 pm

From what I understand The Bristol made an effort to reduce their markup on wine in 2009 and if it went well would continue into 2010.
Kurt


Character is measured by a series of split second decisions.
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

{ RANK }

Forum host

Posts

23215

Joined

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Location

Crescent Hill

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:01 pm

Bill, your rant is WELCOME here! Great topic! My response, frankly, wasn't aimed at you so much - I know you're a wine geek and know these things, but I did want to lay out the big picture in the public discussion. No offense intended.

Furthermore:

Bill P wrote:My rant was more directed at the increasingly practice of charging 3X retail.

On this we agree. As I said in my post, if a wine list is outrageously marked up, I'll buy an alternative beverage. I'll also report it here on this forum, and what's more, if I'm reviewing, I'll ding 'em in print. You are correct, sir. 3X crosses the line from the industry standard into legalized larceny, and in my opinion it assumes the eatery's customers are too ignorant to know or too flush with cash to care.

There. How's THAT for a rant? And a very happy New Year to you and yours, new neighbor! :)
no avatar
User

Robin Garr

{ RANK }

Forum host

Posts

23215

Joined

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Location

Crescent Hill

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:04 pm

Kurt R. wrote:From what I understand The Bristol made an effort to reduce their markup on wine in 2009 and if it went well would continue into 2010.

You're close, Kurt. Their "retail priced wine list," which took only the markup between their wholesale and the beverage journal listed retail (which may differ from street price) was an admirable decision by the management - I know Scott had his hand on it, but top management had to agree.

I think they did that in 2008, though, on the occasion of their 30th anniversary, and it was to last one year and then possibly be extended after one year IF the public rewarded their generosity with increased wine business. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't post myself a calendar remember to check that out. Does anyone know if this policy is still in effect?
no avatar
User

David Clancy

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

730

Joined

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:09 pm

Location

A couch in Andy's house.

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by David Clancy » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:45 pm

2.5/3 markup is the status quo. I challenge any purveyor/restauranter to tell me otherwise.! It's about money! Prices for wine are steep to be sure, but, the real money is in hard alcohol, (mark up is 6x on that). Business is business......
David Clancy
Fabulous Old Louisville
(Is this your homework Larry?)
no avatar
User

Marsha L.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

2540

Joined

Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:56 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Marsha L. » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:55 pm

Robin Garr wrote:This would be a great topic for Marsha's monthly Industry Standard column, although come to think about it, since I just wrote it, maybe I ought to make a column out of it myself. :D


We were giggling about this at brunch today - Robin, your post was longer than my column's word allowance! :lol:
Marsha Lynch
LEO columnist, free range cook/food writer/food stylist
no avatar
User

Mark R.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

4379

Joined

Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:02 pm

Location

Anchorage, KY

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Mark R. » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:10 pm

David Clancy wrote:2.5/3 markup is the status quo. I challenge any purveyor/restauranter to tell me otherwise.! It's about money! Prices for wine are steep to be sure, but, the real money is in hard alcohol, (mark up is 6x on that). Business is business......

I'm assuming the numbers you are referring to on the markup based on your price not on retail prices. My feeling is that I normally expect to see about 2x the retail price as the wine list price.
Written using Dragon NaturallySpeaking

"Life is short. Drink the good wine first"
no avatar
User

Nimbus Couzin

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

684

Joined

Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:05 pm

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Nimbus Couzin » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:50 pm

I'll just chime in briefly here. I believe this is a key concept that Robin was alluding to: it is part of their business model, the way to make it all work. We've all observed the number of places that fail, so obviously it isn't pure profit going on.

In short, if they were to charge less for wine, they're going to charge more for something else - perhaps your entree. Maybe you wouldn't mind paying an extra dollar or two for your entree, maybe you would. It is a trade off, and that is exactly what is going on. The managers and owners are simply deciding how to best please their customers. Personally, if I'm going out, I don't usually buy wine, so I'd prefer that the food prices are lower and wine higher. But if you always get wine, that would probably be reversed....but the restaurants may do better keeping lower food prices and letting people splurge for wine (which they're doing anyway whether at double markup or triple).

Cheers

(p.s. Isn't 30-35% COGS usually the normal business model? An average, not every item) (COGS= Cost of Goods Sold)
Dr. Nimbus Couzin
no avatar
User

Mark Allgeier

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

61

Joined

Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:04 pm

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Mark Allgeier » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:59 pm

Speaking of wine, I just renewed some licenses @ the Cumberland and I opted not to buy the NEW($800.00) Sunday wine sales license. I know, bummer right, but I can't pass that on.
no avatar
User

Bill P

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:20 am

Location

Depauw, IN

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Bill P » Fri Jan 01, 2010 9:10 pm

Nimbus Couzin wrote:I'll just chime in briefly here. I believe this is a key concept that Robin was alluding to: it is part of their business model, the way to make it all work. We've all observed the number of places that fail, so obviously it isn't pure profit going on.

In short, if they were to charge less for wine, they're going to charge more for something else - perhaps your entree. Maybe you wouldn't mind paying an extra dollar or two for your entree, maybe you would. It is a trade off, and that is exactly what is going on. The managers and owners are simply deciding how to best please their customers. Personally, if I'm going out, I don't usually buy wine, so I'd prefer that the food prices are lower and wine higher. But if you always get wine, that would probably be reversed....but the restaurants may do better keeping lower food prices and letting people splurge for wine (which they're doing anyway whether at double markup or triple).

Cheers

(p.s. Isn't 30-35% COGS usually the normal business model? An average, not every item) (COGS= Cost of Goods Sold)

Nimbus-
A bottle of wine with a retail cost of $20 that sells for $60 results is a margin of 67% and this # is probably closer to a 75% margin when the wholesale cost is properly used to calculate the margin. As more folks, like you and me, back off ordering wine, the business model may ultimately shift back to each plate priced according to cost. Regarding the splurge factor, which in large part has historically been fueled by expense accounts, I think some restaurants are over estimating the inelasticity of the demand for wine.
BP
no avatar
User

Alan H

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

588

Joined

Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:37 pm

Location

Highlands

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Alan H » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:04 pm

David Clancy wrote: the real money is in hard alcohol, (mark up is 6x on that). Business is business......


Liter of Makers Mark wholesale - $27.00
Twenty one shots in a liter at $5.25 a piece = $110.25
Profit Margin - Priceless

Not rocket science and David is absolutely right


That is our price for Makers, other establishments vary
Alan Hincks
Overtime Sports Bar and Grille

A fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoroughly sure.
no avatar
User

Michael Mattingly

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

159

Joined

Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:46 am

Location

Paris, France

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by Michael Mattingly » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:26 am

I once purchased a $100+ bottle of wine (Bordeaux) at a local fine-dining establishment to impress a French girl. She thought it humorous to see me paying that much money for a bottle of wine that was only €15 in France.

Speaking of wine. The family of one of my wife's good friend owns Chateau Plaisance (Bordeaux) which can be purchased locally in Kentucky. It's quite the bang for the buck.
no avatar
User

JustinHammond

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

3358

Joined

Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 pm

Location

Lyndon, KY 40222

Re: Restaurant Wine Pricing (Rant)

by JustinHammond » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:49 am

I'll throw beer into the "overpriced in a restaurant" category, but as someone said business is business. As long as we keep paying for it they will keep selling it.
"The idea is to eat well and not die from it-for the simple reason that that would be the end of your eating." - Jim Harrison

https://www.facebook.com/Louisville-Eat ... 129849554/
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AmazonBot 2, Claudebot and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign