organic food study

If everything was "organic" my guess is we'd have famines in more of the world than we do.

Why is that?

I would assume that large scale grain production yields would be less and less predictable without pesticides and the like. But as I said it's only my guess.

Ive been googling around and doing a little reading on this. I found some interesting stuff regarding Indias green revolution. Just type in effects of the Green Revolution for India. While the new methods did keep alot of people out of starvation,they do have some negative consequences. From what I have read there seems to be a debate over the sustainability of this type of agriculture. Soil compaction,lowering of the water tables,desertification,pesticide resistant insects are a few of the negative aspects I read about. It was also interesting to note the effect it had on people,aside from the huge increase in cancer victims in India, was the cycle of debt it put many farmers into.
While I do agree that the term "organic" is often used as a marketing ploy, it does show that there is consumer interest in getting healthier food. I buy organic when it looks good at the store. At farmers market I buy organic to support the farmer thats making the extra effort to do grow that way. I also know that organic farming is sustainable,after all, we grew that way for thousands of years.
As a side note..I often find it funny when I talk to somebody who is really passionate about eating organic food,and then see them light up a smoke.Go figure.

I've always found that amusing, as well. There are a lot of guys at my gym who walk in just reeking of smoke. I think that defeats the purpose of working out (and eating more healthfully, for that matter) but whatever.

I've always found that amusing, as well. There are a lot of guys at my gym who walk in just reeking of smoke. I think that defeats the purpose of working out (and eating more healthfully, for that matter) but whatever.

Yeah, I'll have the Big Mac Combo with a Diet Coke please.

"I also know that organic farming is sustainable,after all, we grew that way for thousands of years." JH

Sorry, John, but not only is the argument inaccurate it is not applicable to a population of 6 billion.

First, we've been adding things to our fields to improve production, since we've been planting fields, (now whether it be raw manure, or processed nitrogen, or fish emulsion is just a matter of organic nomenclature).
We've also made incredible attempts to deter pests from our crops (whether it be domesticated cats, vinegar, or chemical pesticides made from plant derivatives, or petroleum based products).

The point being is that we have not practiced "organic" agriculture for thousands of years and it may or may not be sustainable considering the current population of the planet.

Again, one of the main issues is the definition of the word.

What "organic" means is still a matter of debate.
Does it mean "fertilizer free", or only using natural fertilizers, and what exactly is a natural fertilizer? - if a chemical occurs naturally in the environment can a processed version of the same chemical be labeled as "natural"?
Can organic farms use pesticides made from plant derivatives?
Fish emulsion is a common "natural" fertilizer, but where exactly does it come from? A huge fish farm?
What about waste water run off from an organic farm? Is it any better or worse for the environment?

I honestly don't know the answers to most of the questions i have posed. I believe that further discussion, investigation, and yes, even more regulations are in order before the final word on "organics" is in.

Currently, "organic" is being tossed around synonymously with words like "green", "farm friendly", "all natural", and "environmentally safe".

"I also know that organic farming is sustainable,after all, we grew that way for thousands of years." JH

Sorry, John, but not only is the argument inaccurate it is not applicable to a population of 6 billion.

First, we've been adding things to our fields to improve production, since we've been planting fields, (now whether it be raw manure, or processed nitrogen, or fish emulsion is just a matter of organic nomenclature).
We've also made incredible attempts to deter pests from our crops (whether it be domesticated cats, vinegar, or chemical pesticides made from plant derivatives, or petroleum based products).

The point being is that we have not practiced "organic" agriculture for thousands of years and it may or may not be sustainable considering the current population of the planet.

Again, one of the main issues is the definition of the word.

.

Didnt see it as an argument,but whatever. I guess your labeling it as inaccurate is dependent on your definition of the word organic. Whats the definition you use that allows you to say that my statement is inaccurate?

Just ran across this from the usda.

What are organic production systems and practices?

“Organic farming entails:

* Use of cover crops, green manures, animal manures and crop rotations to fertilize the soil, maximize biological activity and maintain long-term soil health.
* Use of biological control, crop rotations and other techniques to manage weeds, insects and diseases.
* An emphasis on biodiversity of the agricultural system and the surrounding environment.
* Using rotational grazing and mixed forage pastures for livestock operations and alternative health care for animal wellbeing.
* Reduction of external and off-farm inputs and elimination of synthetic pesticides and fertilizers and other materials, such as hormones and antibiotics.
* A focus on renewable resources, soil and water conservation, and management practices that restore, maintain and enhance ecological balance.”

Transitioning to Organic Production. USDA Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE), 2006. http://www.sare.org/publications/organic/organic01.htm

“Organic Principles. There are several compelling principles that characterize certified organic farming. They include biodiversity, integration, sustainability, natural plant nutrition, natural pest management, and integrity. Most organic operations will reflect all of these to a greater or lesser degree. Since each farm is a distinct entity, there is a large degree of variation.” Organic Crop Production Overview, by George Kuepper and Lance Gegner. ATTRA - National Sustainable Agriculture Information Service
http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/organiccrop.html

“Organic production is not simply the avoidance of conventional chemical inputs, nor is it the substitution of natural inputs for synthetic ones. Organic farmers apply techniques first used thousands of years ago, such as crop rotations and the use of composted animal manures and green manure crops, in ways that are economically sustainable in today's world. In organic production, overall system health is emphasized, and the interaction of management practices is the primary concern. Organic producers implement a wide range of strategies to develop and maintain biological diversity and replenish soil fertility.”
Organic Agriculture Overview, USDA, Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service (CSREES), 2007. http://www.csrees.usda.gov/ProgViewOver ... prnum=6861

Again, one of the main issues is the definition of the word.

What "organic" means is still a matter of debate.
Does it mean "fertilizer free", or only using natural fertilizers, and what exactly is a natural fertilizer? - if a chemical occurs naturally in the environment can a processed version of the same chemical be labeled as "natural"?
Can organic farms use pesticides made from plant derivatives?
Fish emulsion is a common "natural" fertilizer, but where exactly does it come from? A huge fish farm?
What about waste water run off from an organic farm? Is it any better or worse for the environment?


Currently, "organic" is being tossed around synonymously with words like "green", "farm friendly", "all natural", and "environmentally safe".

I think most of what you ask can be answered here
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/Organic/co ... ional6.pdf
I agree that the word "organic" is being tossed around alot,but to be compliant with the USDA its very clear what can legally be labeled organic. There is a clear wording as to what can be called "natural""all natural"and"organic". You ask if organic farms can use pesticides from plant derivatives..yes they are called Botanicals and it is spelled out very clearly under the NOP act. As to the question about "natural" fertilizer...the USDA states you cannot use synthetic fertilizer. They define synthetic as a substance that is formulated or manufactured by a chemical process or a process that chemically changes a substance extracted from naturally occurring plant,animal,or mineral sources. The fish emulsion can be called natural,but not organic, unless it is made in a manner that is consistent with guidelines for organic animal production.
One other area I feel you are wrong about is your idea that organic methods are not applicable for a population of six billion. I think thats a very old fashioned way of thinking. In my opinion the population growth will require us to grow crops more intensively. Hydroponics have shown the ability to produce far more food per acre than traditional growing means, and its very easy to grow organic while using hydro. As a matter of fact I'm working with a group people on a small island,more an atoll, building just such a system.
There is a legal definition of what an organic farm is. If you want to use your own definition for the purposes of argument,go right ahead

The comments on this issue including the world population and global food production move me to a question: Just because we can, should we? I love the buy local/eat local movement. How local can we go? Should we be eating crab legs in KY? How about strawberries in December? I recently watched a TV show on amusement park food. They now serve sushi grade tuna on a buffett at Disney World!! I think thats so wrong. This may be going a bit off course but the more involved in what I prepare for family and friends the more I think about it. The other end of this thought may be poorer health if one did not have access to fresh foods all year.

Hi John, not trying to be argumentative,

"There is a legal definition of what an organic farm is. If you want to use your own definition for the purposes of argument,go right ahead"

The legal definition provided by the USDA is quite helpful, and i'm not trying to make my own definition of "organic" for arguments sake. Ask the most average consumer you know, if they are aware that pesticides (of any kind) can be used on products labeled as "organic".

Botanicals in my own opinion are not "organic" they are chemicals that are occur naturally in plants, but in the end are still chemicals being sprayed on our crops.

Our perceptions obviously differ greatly, because under no circumstances could i relate hydroponics to organics. My perception is that hydroponics are effective, but they remove the plant from the ecosystem and create an almost sterile artificial environment to insure the success of the crop. The artificial lighting (commonly used in hydroponics), the liquid nutrient system, the odd substances used for the roots to take growth, all of those things seem so far from "organic" to me that its hard for me to reconcile "organic hydroponics". I'm not denying the possibility, just highlighting the differences in our perception.
I believe that the average consumer buys organic because they believe one or more of the following:

1- it is better for the environment to buy organic (in some cases yes, in some no - for example if we, in Louisville, are buying organic produce that is primarily shipped from CA or TX, wouldn't it be less harmful to buy from a local non-organic farmer?)

2- organic products are "chemical" free: organic products don't use fertilizers, pesticides, coloring, and preservatives

3. Organics come from small, non-corporate/family farms

4. The conditions for the employees and the domesticated animals are far better at organic farms that at non-organic farms (as with many things this is true in some cases, but not all - i'll refer to Horizon Dairy's treatment of their cattle once again)


I think if every consumer read the USDA standards, that would be great. The reality though, is that you have to be a fairly dedicated consumer to wade through those standards and then to research your state guidelines as well.
Forgive me for not having faith in my fellow man.




A perfect example of how funny the USDA and the FDA are about organics is this- there are a handful of "organic" beers being produced in the US and in the UK; not a single one of these beers lists the ingredients on the label (and yes, they are USDA certified or certified by the UK's agricultural agency).


just my 2 cents,
again my advice is to be an informed consumer

shawn

The legal definition provided by the USDA is quite helpful, and i'm not trying to make my own definition of "organic" for arguments sake. Ask the most average consumer you know, if they are aware that pesticides (of any kind) can be used on products labeled as "organic".

Again,only certain types of pesticides can be used and have to stay within the USDA organic guidelines,non synthetic botanicals.

Botanicals in my own opinion are not "organic" they are chemicals that are occur naturally in plants, but in the end are still chemicals being sprayed on our crops.

Dude,come on...water is a chemical. Here you go again, saying what you consider to be organic or not, without providing your definition of the word. I know Id rather spray vinegar on my plants than something like Orthene that has a pretty high LD-50 rating(lethal dose,the amount used to kill 50 percent of test animals). I am a registered pesticide applicator. I could bring over some stuff ,Orthene,Thoidan,Chlorpyrifos,Abamectin and spray some of that on a slice and then I could spray a slice with vinegar and a tea made with mum flowers. Which slice would you rather eat?

Our perceptions obviously differ greatly, because under no circumstances could i relate hydroponics to organics. My perception is that hydroponics are effective, but they remove the plant from the ecosystem and create an almost sterile artificial environment to insure the success of the crop. The artificial lighting (commonly used in hydroponics), the liquid nutrient system, the odd substances used for the roots to take growth, all of those things seem so far from "organic" to me that its hard for me to reconcile "organic hydroponics". I'm not denying the possibility, just highlighting the differences in our perception.

I am not sure how you define "organic" so its hard to respond to this. Its very easy to relate organic to hydro. Im not sure what your not seeing here. The Mayans used organic hydro culture. Its a time tested method for growing. You are correct in saying that you create an almost sterile growing environment. That way you have little disease or insect pressure. I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "odd substance" used to make the roots grow. The system that I am helping build for the folks on island uses a compost/manure tea to feed the plants. Its a very simple system that places lettuce plants in "gutters" and a pump sends water down the gutter at timed intervals. A ten by 20 foot section of the system produces 144 plants a week. I know a fair amount about commercial hydro food production. I would say that most large scale operation dont use artificial lights,its not cost effective. That pretty much only done by folks growing pot.

I believe that the average consumer buys organic because they believe one or more of the following:

1- it is better for the environment to buy organic (in some cases yes, in some no - for example if we, in Louisville, are buying organic produce that is primarily shipped from CA or TX, wouldn't it be less harmful to buy from a local non-organic farmer?)

Another good reason to go to your local farmers market

2- organic products are "chemical" free: organic products don't use fertilizers, pesticides, coloring, and preservatives

Yes,marketers take advantage of people...WF being a good example.

3. Organics come from small, non-corporate/family farms

Well,some of it does...again shop the farmers market.

4. The conditions for the employees and the domesticated animals are far better at organic farms that at non-organic farms (as with many things this is true in some cases, but not all - i'll refer to Horizon Dairy's treatment of their cattle once again)

Most folks choose to remain undereducated about where there food comes from,especially meat.

I think if every consumer read the USDA standards, that would be great. The reality though, is that you have to be a fairly dedicated consumer to wade through those standards and then to research your state guidelines as well.
Forgive me for not having faith in my fellow man.

I agree. One of the problems is the regulation of organic products. I think there is only a couple dozen people in the country as watch dogs. I dont think its likely that people will read through that crap. Thats why having standards that are supposed to be followed is a good thing. Similar to a restaurant kitchen, I dont know what the health codes are,but I assume if theres a "A" rating in the window its a clean kitchen. I guess I am not a dedicated enough consumer for not having read the health codes for restaurants.

A perfect example of how funny the USDA and the FDA are about organics is this- there are a handful of "organic" beers being produced in the US and in the UK; not a single one of these beers lists the ingredients on the label (and yes, they are USDA certified or certified by the UK's agricultural agency).

I didnt know that alcoholic beverages had to list ingredients. Is that something new?

just my 2 cents,
again my advice is to be an informed consumer

I agree, why dont you read up on hydro food production.Howard Resh is a good place to start. Also , Im not sure if your unwilling or unable to provide me with the definition of "organic" that you are using. Example being when you said "all of those things seem so far from "organic" to me that its hard for me to reconcile "organic hydroponics".

I cant help but wonder if your not a bit jaded by past experience with the public and organic products and the marketing that goes with it(WF?). Yeah, it sucks that people were taking advantage of it and duping others into buying things they might not otherwise buy. Dont let a few bad apples(organic or not) spoil your outlook on this method of food production.

What a GREAT thread.

I really have enjoyed all the details provided by John, Shawn and Nimbus.

Gina and I have really benefited from food consumption ideas provided in LHBF. We both agree we feel better, body and mind. I've recently committed to try to eliminate consuming foods with a "Nutrition Square". I've heard the food additive lobbies have spent millions to successfully get the FDA to allow items such as MSG to be labeled as "spices". Others have been changed to "flavors". Thanks FDA! Once again "follow the money".

I really agree with Chris's ideas below. I've heard rumors (I don't want to get sued) that the original piping lines used to produce aspertain were changed three times before they would stand up to the erosion caused by the chemicals used. There's lots of these aggressive chemicals used in a safe manor to produce foods. I just don't trust greed.

Must end now to hit the Farmers markets!

I do not care whatever this one study think it has found.

I do not trust Monsanto and do not trust GMOs.

I recommend everybody growing little gardens themselves if they can.

I would also recommend buying from vegatables and meats from local farmers.

I would also recommend not eating any fast food; specially for children.

I would also recommend eating at restaurants that you trust use good fresh foods(keep it simple) and avoid stuff like Trans fat and MSG as much as possible.

I am not trying to be preachy and really do not know everything(I like learning new things).

If you disagree; I wish you well and hope your right.

But I strongly have a distrust for GMOs, Monsanto, Aspartane? and the like.

While I can appreciate all the concern for food additives, it's weird to hear someone talking about organic food and then come into my office asking for all variety of medications. Did you know that warfarin a drug used to intervene in the blood clotting cascade is also in rat poison - it's a convoluted world.

I happen to have no problem with greed as it is a predictable motivating human trait.

Who is John Galt?

Did you know that warfarin a drug used to intervene in the blood clotting cascade is also in rat poison - it's a convoluted world.

Convoluted it is.... My first experience with this was when i was very, very young and my mother was prescribed Premarin. A family friend who is a nurse and disagreed with it told us it was PREgnant MAres urINe......

Did you know that warfarin a drug used to intervene in the blood clotting cascade is also in rat poison - it's a convoluted world.

Convoluted it is.... My first experience with this was when i was very, very young and my mother was prescribed Premarin. A family friend who is a nurse and disagreed with it told us it was PREgnant MAres urINe......

Yep...there was a shortage of the "raw product" (pregnant mare's urine) about 3 years ago resulting in a huge shortage of that medicine. I believe that most of it is manufactured in Europe.