Bagels?

I went to the bagel shop on Frankfort and got good bagels today, but they don't really have any hot options... I've been disappointed by Dooley's (I've only been to the one on Brownsboro by the Watterson)... any suggestions for where I can get a bagel sandwich? The Einstein's downtown is the best place I've been thus far.

There really are any places to get good New York bagels in Louisville. Einstein's are made at a central location and shipped frozen to be baked locally. Dooley's are made in store in the store but really just don't quite make it, Panera fits in about the same. I am assuming the place you are talking about on Frankfurt is Nancy's Bagels and Grounds. I've never particularly liked their bagels but I can't quite explain why. We have a reasonable sized Jewish community locally, I wish someone would open a good bagel shop, preferably as part of a Jewish delicatessen!

When I worked at the Bakery, I was told by many of our customers, including of the Jewish community, that it is all in the water. Or should I say, as our New York expats did, Wahdah. The type of the water in the 'Ville is not conducive to the texture of the real thing, despite many attempts at trying. That's what I heard anyway, and it makes me feel better for our excellent B&P artists in town...

I started a thread a while back about the quality of bagels here... and Jewish rye here. I don't buy the water thing. I have had excellent bagels in other parts of the country. New Yorkers get on my nerves. "You can't do anything we can do. It's, uh, the water." Bull. I've had New Yorkers tell me the only place you can get good WHITE CASTLES is in The City.

I'm no baker, but there must be a way to get that chewy, not bready, interior and the snap-pull of the crust. People just need to do some research.

Okay... I'll eat a little crow. I did some research: http://www.gftc.ca/articles/2001/baker08.cfm

It may be a simple hard v. soft issue, not "ooo, there's magic only we New Yorkers got." Is our water too soft? If so, is there not a way to compensate?

[Robin Garr]

There is no close approximation to the real New York bagel in Louisville, and I honestly don't believe it has a darn thing to do with the water. Most people here simply haven't developed a taste for NY bagels, don't know what they are, don't care, and probably wouldn't like them anyway.

It's not the water, it's an acquired taste, and having lived in the East Village and in Queens (and, as a kid, worked at camps in the Borscht Belt), I've acquired it. But I've pretty much given up on finding it here. There used to be a local chain called Syd's or Sid's (in the strip on Wallace that housed Bazo's before its move), and they came pretty darn close. Its successor, a small regional chain called Bruegger's (sp?) wasn't bad, either. But since they've gone, there's been nothing. Dooley's just don't have the same texture or crust, and I won't bore everyone by going into my usual rant about how ridiculous Nancy's bagels are. Feh!

I think it could be done here. I do not believe it's the water. But I just don't think there's enough of a market for it to justify the expenditure. People will accept inferior substitutes, and making the real thing won't make anyone rich, so who's going to bother?

Rant out.

There is no close approximation to the real New York bagel in Louisville, and I honestly don't believe it has a darn thing to do with the water. Most people here simply haven't developed a taste for NY bagels, don't know what they are, don't care, and probably wouldn't like them anyway.

It's not the water, it's an acquired taste, and having lived in the East Village and in Queens (and, as a kid, worked at camps in the Borscht Belt), I've acquired it. But I've pretty much given up on finding it here. There used to be a local chain called Syd's or Sid's (in the strip on Wallace that housed Bazo's before its move), and they came pretty darn close. Its successor, a small regional chain called Bruegger's (sp?) wasn't bad, either. But since they've gone, there's been nothing. Dooley's just don't have the same texture or crust, and I won't bore everyone by going into my usual rant about how ridiculous Nancy's bagels are. Feh!

I think it could be done here. I do not believe it's the water. But I just don't think there's enough of a market for it to justify the expenditure. People will accept inferior substitutes, and making the real thing won't make anyone rich, so who's going to bother?

Rant out.

Thanks for the help, even if it wasn't helpful! I'm not sure i've ever had an "authentic" NY bagel, but I do know I've had better than what we can get here. I've tried making my own before, and maybe I will do it again.

I always thought the idea of New York water being better for baking was a farce like everyone else, even though I grew up there. Than a couple of weeks ago I saw a show on the food channel where a chef made three identical pizzas with water from different places used in the crust. They had for testers taste of the pizzas and every one chose the one made with New York water as being the best! Kinda makes me think there must be something about the water.

As mentioned above it might be the hardness/softness of the water or possibly the mineral content but obviously based on this test there probably is something to it. The show also interviewed one of the owner's of one of the major New York pizza restaurants. He had recently opened a restaurant in Phoenix and after experimenting making pizzas there had installed a $50,000 water treatment system to get the water quality he wanted. He wouldn't release any information about what it was or what it did because he said it was proprietary. Prove there must be some way to get the same water quality elsewhere.

The water thing is a load of hooey. Many, many moons ago i worked at a place called Willy Z's Deli in Dupont Circle, and they made a great traditional style bagel using plain old Louisville tap water. Sadly, since they went out of business, no one local has been able to produce a bagel of similar quality.

I have not been to NYC, but I've lived all over the country, and I have to say Louisville tap water is some of the best-tasting I've experienced.

Louisville does have some mighty fine drinking water...

I'm willing to agree that water can make a difference, but not enough of a difference to explain the disparity between the bagels here and in NYC. I also know other cities have good/great bagels.

Since I'm in business school, I'm going to go with the assumption that opportunity cost of a great bagel simply isn't worth it.

On a closing note: the water of Kentucky is part of what makes great bourbon and race horses (or so i've heard), so maybe that's worth the cost of great bagels.

Try Breadworks in Village Square on Shelbyville Rd in Middletown

[Robin Garr]

Try Breadworks in Village Square on Shelbyville Rd in Middletown

Breadworks bagels are above the median for Louisville, but trust me, they are no more New York bagels than a Wick's pizza is like a New York pie.

(A Nancy's bagel is no more like a New York Bagel than a bag of grits is like a New York pie.)

(A Nancy's bagel is no more like a New York Bagel than a bag of grits is like a New York pie.)

Couldn't resist, could you?

I guess I get to play the role of our own ex-ex-ex-pat, Phil...

I have to take issue with a few things.

First, as I am sure Marsha could explain much better, baking is a science, not the modern art experience of the hot side.

You change anything, including and especially the water, and it affects the product. Even home bakers have used Sprite or a carbonated liquid to get a desired effect on their cupcakes, which happens to be an effect on texture.

There are posts above with links and references to sources citing that the water is a MAJOR factor. I was impressed that someone had the cojones to speak their opinion, research it, and then report to the community their findings and their meal of crow.

Then there are disparaging comments about specific, LOCAL, community businesses, and the dismissal of their ability to achieve the "authentic" NY bagel that is, IMHO, the better product. There is the dismissal of this area as a market that will accept inferior product. And what expense exactly would be incurred by creating this "superior" product? Seriously, what expense would be so prohibitive and yet so unidentifiable?

Please do rant about an experience at Nancy's, over and over, and provide the context. If there is a reason that my almighty dollar should not go to Nancy's, I'd like to hear it. But these comments, while may be true, to an individual (and no, I am not directly this solely at any one individual) but a comment like that, "in this economy" can kill a business. The people at Nancy's are cool. They make more than bagels, and while I do not know if grits are on the menu, I am upset at seeing these blanket dismissals and hurtful generalizations. The folks at Dooley's are also very cool, on top of being a family business, and human beings to boot, and they also make more than bagels.

I remember posting the water comment last night, I spent way too much time of my life trying to give myself the back door of "that's what I was told, anyway" because I was afraid of this response. I am also spending way too much time now trying not to offend, and trying to understand how one thread can be steered towards the conclusion that Locals Over All was The Way, and the very next thread (this a.m.) is a They Can't Do It and Louisville Isn't Ready Anyway, So Why Bother? with specific locals skewered.

I hope that this doesn't offend anyone, but I can't be the only one who feels the downer when critical dismissals overtake and terminate what is obviously a subjective passion in a thread. And in this case, when this is an objective analysis of the scientific process required to produce the exact texture, these dismissals (can't think of a better word, lo siento) hijack the thread as well. I come of here because of the shared passion about food, more of that please! If someone knows the secret that has in all these years been just out of our reach, then lets put our heads together, take pride in our work as Locals do, and create that market. With context.