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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Steve P » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:30 am

From a community pride perspective I can appreciate the indignation expressed in this thread. Beyond that I'm having a bit of trouble rationalizing why there is a need or even a desire to turn L'ville into a tourist destination the likes of Charleston S.C. or wherever. Don't get me wrong, I think L'ville has much to offer the out of town guest (and have become an avid cheerleader in that respect) but given the choice of (let's say) spending finite tax dollars attracting new high paying non-service industry jobs vs spending those same dollars attracting a few (more) thousand guests...I'll take the jobs. With a strong acknowledgment to the ties to the hospitality and restaurant industry on this board I think your average L'villian would tell you the same thing.

In my mind one of the most obvious opportunities to showcase L'ville is through the convention trade. While it is my understanding that the convention business in L'ville is extremely good (when compared to other cities of the same size) perhaps the current state of the economy opens up a window of opportunity to attract businesses that would ordinarily prefer a more high profile destination. If it were me, I'd spend my time and effort attracting this "tourist" component before I worried about the likes of the GQ and Conde Nast crowd.

While in all honesty I don't know that L'ville has what it takes (and I'm speaking in terms of of mountains, beaches, music, etc) to become a "destination" city, one doesn't have to look too far up the road to identify at least one missed opportunity for tourist dollars. That would be Kentucky Speedway which lies equal distance between L'ville and Cincy. Despite holding 3 or 4 races per year that can draw upwards of 75'000 people the state of Kentucky has more or less allowed Cincy the opportunity to paint itself as the "gateway" to this venue. With a new owner who has vowed bigger and better things for this track (seating will be increased to 150'000 this year) this is an untapped opportunity...and to those in the hospitality industry that may still cling to the idea these fans are not worthy of your attention you might want to rethink that notion. The small city of Bristol TN hosts two "race weekends" per year and the annual economic impact is the equivalent of three Super Bowls...every year. Hotels are booked up to 120 miles from the facility and the restaurants stay packed for the duration.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Phil Gissen » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:18 pm

I would enjoy writing an article about Louisville's restaurant scene. It is an unknown factor in other cities, I am sure of this. Yet, I do not have the clout to get it published. I have tried to get articles I have written about wonderful places I have visited that people do not know about: Culebra, Iles des Saintes, Los Roques, Cadaques, just to name a few. The best response I ever received was a kind letter from the editor informing me that he/she like my writing. That was it!

Public Relations companies have this clout. I'm am telling you, people would come to Louisville if they knew how good the restaurant scene is. I am always looking for the "next place." I have never been to Pittsburg, but I have heard great things about the city and have read some excellent articles about Pittsburg. I will get there soon. If Louisville has just one article written about its restaurants in one of the major travel magazines, this article would have a major effect on Louisville's image and tourist income.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Ethan Ray » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:51 pm

I definitely echo Looi's comments that the city seems to be less interested in promoting it's better eateries... and more inclined to promote basketball.

I will venture to say that when compared to what most would consider to be "first rate dining cities" (NYC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Miami, etc...) Louisville does not stack up in terms of sheer volume of higher-end eateries.

Don't get me wrong.
As a cook, it kills me to say this: but we just can't compare.
For every single notable higher end restaurant in Louisville, there are likely to be 10 or more in the larger markets that compare.
Using the argument that "it's excellent for it's size" carry little weight because people outside our region honestly could care less.

It's also unfortunate that a smaller dining public with less expendable dollars to take "dining adventures" or dining "risks" is what we have here. I truly don't mean this in a negative sense... It's just the simple fact of the matter.

Diners in Louisville demand certain things.
That's why you see an influx of beef filets, salmon, Chilean sea bass (which is dangerously over fished and close to endangerment), potatoes, demi-glace, uninspired mixed veg, tomatoes out of season, crab cakes, etc. etc.

To some these are things they expect.
To others these are boring, uninspired mainstays of years past... that merely stay on menus because they sell, and because diners are too stuck to move on, and the operators are too afraid to take the risk to lose the "cash cow seller" dish, or to challenge their clientele.

I applaud those chefs in town who are not afraid to push this notion and to offer comparable options without sacrificing quality, seasonality or their own integrity as chefs.

The fact of the matter is that strive as we may, without a dining public who is both interested and educated enough to appreciate creativity, and not being stuck eating the same mainstays of the past 20 years... and without chefs who are willing to try to push their clientele to think beyond the traditional notions of food and dining, Louisville dining will never compare to that of the first tier market's I've listed before.
We're still going to be considered a second-rate dining destination... no matter ho hard we as chefs fight against it.

The critical mass of a city's dining options are 100% determined by their local dining population.
A restaurant simply will not survive if no one will support it.
And the local diners here simply demand things that are not on the same level as a "first tier" dining city.

Not to say there are not dining options that do not satisfy this for diners who desire it. Restaurants like 610 Magnolia, (the soon to be opened) 732 Social, Asiatique, Basa, Corbett's, Mojito, the Oakroom, Proof, etc. do an incredible job of representing our city as more than a "simple food" kind of town... But if those are our only cutting edge restaurant stalwarts, what are people to think of the hundreds of other dining options in this city?
Who cares if it's fine dining or upscale? There are seriously so many clones of other restaurants (food-wise) serving food that wouldn't be surprising to find on another restaurants menu. The restaurants above have menus that are uniquely their own, have a very original identity in this town and compete for national attention. There are no others like them in town. These places worth writing to home about and marking as unique gems of the city.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of other very fine dining establishments in this city... but many clone the formulas of others in this city and of other note worthy places nationwide - especially those one in the upscale category that just kind of get caught in a general wash out of "sameness".


I love Louisville and Louisville dining. And I very much intend to continue cooking in this city for years to come...
But i fail to understand the rationale that outside of a few stellar examples, that Louisville shines at an equal level (from a culinary standpoint) as the first tier cities.

Hell, if that wasn't the case... why would local chefs be looking/dining/visiting/blogging the chefs and restaurants of these "first tier" cities looking for inspiration?

I truly look forward to the day that Louisville is viewed as a culinary juggernaut on both a national and international level. But until both our diners become more open to new ideas and when our city's chefs (as a whole) become more ambitious... We're still second tier.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Phil Gissen » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:50 pm

Well, I must respectfully diasagree. I am the first to criticize many aspects of Louisville as most of you know. However, the reasons why I feel Louisville could be a dining destination is as follows:
1. Foodies are always looking for something different and outside of New York, Chicago, San Francisco etc.

2. In this economic decline, it has become increasingly difficult to go to these large urban centers and afford to eat well. Last time I was in NYC, I almost fainted at what I spent every time I went out to dinner. It was ludicrous and I am not cheap and will spend money, but even I have some limits...........

3. Louisville has a distinctive dining scene that makes it stand out. I have asked why this is, and several restauranteurs explained that it may be because there is an excellent cooking school with a grand tradition in Louisville. Every chef has there own style, and while the Wolfgang Puck, Alice Walters, Jean George, Charley Trotter etc. are icons in their cities, many of the restaurants controlled by these chefs are almost chain like or often unapproachable. I actually would rather dine at Seviche, Equas, 610 Magnolia, Le Relais etc. then go to one of these shrines of gastrinomy that have become theater rather then dining.

4. Louisville, your restaurants are the best thing about this city! I know. Call me a snob, an arrogant egoist, a pretentious jerk, whatever, I have traveled to cities all over the world and perhaps Louisville may not have Michelin shrines of cooking, but for affordibility, variety, and accessability, this city can compete globally. I have foodie friends of mine who trust my judgment, visiting me just to try the restaurants I have told them about.

Louisville has a ton of issues, and I do not ever want to repeat our web argument about Bardstown Road. However, the restaurants are world class.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Elizabeth S » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:09 pm

Ethan Ray wrote:Diners in Louisville demand certain things.
That's why you see an influx of beef filets, salmon, Chilean sea bass (which is dangerously over fished and close to endangerment), potatoes, demi-glace, uninspired mixed veg, tomatoes out of season, crab cakes, etc. etc.

To some these are things they expect.
To others these are boring, uninspired mainstays of years past... that merely stay on menus because they sell, and because diners are too stuck to move on, and the operators are too afraid to take the risk to lose the "cash cow seller" dish, or to challenge their clientele.


Not sure whether I agree with the rest of the post but this section is freaking hilarious. It is so true. Crab cakes are especially true. I am so happy you said that.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Sally M » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:11 pm

Phil Gissen on Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:50 pm “Louisville has a ton of issues, and I do not ever want to repeat our web argument about Bardstown Road.”

- - - -

Holy cow. Louisville has no issues. Game on.
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Andrew Mellman

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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Andrew Mellman » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:10 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
MichaelBolen wrote:From what I hear, Louisville has done a complete 180 in the past 10 years, and the word needs to get out that it is a hip city.

Take it from a guy who was a foodie here in the '70s and writing about restaurants for the now-defunct afternoon paper in the '80s, Michael. That's absurd. Louisville's interest in dining out goes back a long way - to our grandparents' time at least - and the modern dining revolution - and the Bardstown Restaurant Row - were going pretty strong by the late 1970s


Robin, I have to disagree on this one. My wife & I moved to town in the early '80's from Chicago (w/ 18 mo in Memphis). We found every ethnic cuisine imaginable, as long as it was italian and/or American-Chinese (featuring either steak dishes or fried items). We tried for other Asian restaurants, and other than Lee's Korean it was something of a wasteland. Soos Hungarian had just closed. No eastern European. No Latin American (other than the first inroads of Mexican).

We got Broadway series tix from the beginning, and we had two options for eating after the plays: the Bristol or Hazenhour's (sp?). No other restaurant (excluding White Castle) was open after 10:30 on Friday nights. None. Not even in the still-fledgling Bardstown Road corridor.

Cafe Metro was good, and there were a very few good Southern/local places, but it was a vast wasteland. Maybe to use your words "Louisville's interest" was there, but it had not yet been put into practice!

Now, one only has to see this forum to know how much the city had changed. And - sorry those that keep talking about inside the beltway - but we even have a choice of restaurants in the burbs after 10:30 Friday and Saturday nights - along with literally dozens in the city!

And - regarding this Texas Roadhouse bit - two of the three Texas Roadhouses in Louisville - along with their headquarters - are INSIDE the Watterson (though I agree with a previous writer that he likely went to the one on Outer Loop)!
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Robin Garr » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:22 pm

andrew mellman wrote:Robin, I have to disagree on this one.

Andrew, you are generally correct as far as diverse ethnic cuisines are concerned, but the city's dining scene has been a work in progress. I strongly disagree that it has done "a 180 turnaround" in the past 10 years, and would say you underestimate the non-ethnic dining scene a bit. Remember, mid-size cities in the entire nation saw things start to change in the '70s and '80s, as James Beard, Bernard Clayton, Julia Child (and the Galloping Gourmet, Romagnolis and other TV chefs) started to have their impact on a Baby Boom that was moving into adulthood and eager to spend some of our disposable income on things like good food and fine wines that hadn't interested our parents much. Metro? I thought it was a little pretentious at the time ... but you're overlooking such early entries as Formally Myra's, Lily Langtry's, Jack Fry's, and before long Lilly's and quite a few more. 610 Magnolia was in place by 1980. Casa Grisanti, old-fashioned Italian though it may have been, set a new bar for service and opened up the "Northern" Italian niche to some extent; the Grisanti's Sixth Avenue raised the bar. Le Relais has been here at least 25 years. So has Equus. The ethnic trend was just starting, but believe me, Sichuan and Hunan from places like Emperor/Empress and Golden Phoenix came as a revelation when all we had before was Hoe Kow and the early Oriental House. The Mexican diaspora had not reached here yet, but Chico's brought us real New Mexico cuisine, including green chile and carne asada, when all we had before was Tumbleweed (and even that - and the short lived Por Que No) was a big step up from the Chili Bowl and Old Walnut Chili Parlor.

I think you underestimate where we were in the late '70s and early '80s. The foodie revolution hit here hard; and while it wasn't an overnight revolution, options grew really fast, *because* the market for fine dining here has always been strong.

I certainly don't see a major change in the past 10 years - specifically since 1999. If there was a turning point, it had already arrived in the middle '80s; actually, things may have stalled a bit when Gannett cut back its dining coverage and quality after Ronnie Lundy, the last Bingham-trained dining critic, left the building in the early '90s.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Andrew Mellman » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:58 pm

I sort of agree . . .

I see Louisville as a progression, not a revolution. In the very early 80's the basic bones were there, giving an indication that improvement was possible. While I'm not the expert you are, it appeared to me that we've seen a slow but steady improvement since the early 80's, with every year bring new (and better) restaurants, longer hours, more customers willing to experiment and/or pay, and more entertainment options!

Yes, 610 had wonderful food, and presaged the growth of regional-American gourmet (paving the way for Lilly's et al), but something about dropping big bucks for dinner and having the chef come out in his underwear scratching himself while working the crowd was the exact opposite of the fine service developed by Grisanti's.

Equus opened in 1985 (according to their web site), possibly energized by the visible success of Grisanti's, 610, and Metro.

Emperor was the first "non-American" Chinese, followed by Empress, which together led the influx of new-Asian places throughout the city. El Capital (still here!) I think was the first "real" Mexican, which - when it became apparent that anglo's also liked the food - led to more and more Mexican restaurants opening.

In essence, it's been a steady flow. We comment to each other that the restaurant scene today is nothing like it was back in 1983, but it's been gradual enough that we don't feel as if it were a revolution, but maybe a gradual "evolution" that someone who left in the 80's may not recognize (especially if one ate only with parents who are not adventurous)?
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by MichaelBolen » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:13 pm

andrew mellman wrote:
Robin Garr wrote:
MichaelBolen wrote:From what I hear, Louisville has done a complete 180 in the past 10 years, and the word needs to get out that it is a hip city.

Take it from a guy who was a foodie here in the '70s and writing about restaurants for the now-defunct afternoon paper in the '80s, Michael. That's absurd. Louisville's interest in dining out goes back a long way - to our grandparents' time at least - and the modern dining revolution - and the Bardstown Restaurant Row - were going pretty strong by the late 1970s


Robin, I have to disagree on this one. My wife & I moved to town in the early '80's from Chicago (w/ 18 mo in Memphis). We found every ethnic cuisine imaginable, as long as it was italian and/or American-Chinese (featuring either steak dishes or fried items). We tried for other Asian restaurants, and other than Lee's Korean it was something of a wasteland. Soos Hungarian had just closed. No eastern European. No Latin American (other than the first inroads of Mexican).

We got Broadway series tix from the beginning, and we had two options for eating after the plays: the Bristol or Hazenhour's (sp?). No other restaurant (excluding White Castle) was open after 10:30 on Friday nights. None. Not even in the still-fledgling Bardstown Road corridor.

Cafe Metro was good, and there were a very few good Southern/local places, but it was a vast wasteland. Maybe to use your words "Louisville's interest" was there, but it had not yet been put into practice!

Now, one only has to see this forum to know how much the city had changed. And - sorry those that keep talking about inside the beltway - but we even have a choice of restaurants in the burbs after 10:30 Friday and Saturday nights - along with literally dozens in the city!

And - regarding this Texas Roadhouse bit - two of the three Texas Roadhouses in Louisville - along with their headquarters - are INSIDE the Watterson (though I agree with a previous writer that he likely went to the one on Outer Loop)!


Nope. There is only one Texas Roadhouse inside the Watterson (and I could throw a coin across the Watterson from their parking lot). Also their headquarters is inside the Watterson by literally 50 yards. Even so, you catch my drift. Mr. Comer likely ate at suburban restaurants with his parents in the late 1980s and only comes back once a year for Christmas. He knows less about the city than folks that came for a week last fall for Ryder Cup for England.

Robin, I have only been in Louisville for four years, and sadly, I am leaving due to a job opportunity I simply cannot pass up. I am from Chicago and have lived all over in my young age, but Louisville is my new adopted hometown. That said, every local I have talked to has basically said the city was not a great dining town just 10 years ago. Even the top restaurants that Ethan Ray just listed have only been around a few years for the most part. The cutting edge places, the places that make you feel like you are in a big city, have only been around a few years. The same can be said about nightlife. Say what you want about fourth street, but the feel of places like Hotel or Prime on main street on the weekends feels like what you find in larger cities. Jeff Ruby's and Proof and their clientele wouldn't be out of place in the Gold Coast of Chicago or Soho Manhattan.

With all of this, the national perception of Louisville (if people have hard of it or have any opinion at all) is that it is a smallish, backwater, old, industrial, river city. This would put it in line with Evansville. Now, we all know this is laughable, but Louisville REALLY does have an image problem. Most people across the US couldn't even tell you whether Lexington or Louisville was larger. I see it all the time on a board I moderate for the city, and we are one of the most visited web forums on the net. How can Louisville fix this? I haven't a clue. I think some ideas are good, others are not. It is true that Louisville is actually a top ten convention city. I think continuing to grow downtown with more retail and local dining will help. I think better signage and public transit will help, but most importantly, the community needs to start with educating its own populace better and attracting high paying, white collar jobs. All the rest will follow. An NBA team would probably help the city's image too. Also, I think the natives need to be more open to growth, to change, and to new people with new ideas. The idea that Louisville can't do this, or it's too small for Museum Plaza, or too small for the NBA, doesn't cut it.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Robin Garr » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:17 pm

andrew mellman wrote:Emperor was the first "non-American" Chinese, followed by Empress, which together led the influx of new-Asian places throughout the city.

Yep, I think we're much closer now, Andrew. :) I never had the particular issue you experienced at 610, and I honestly think you may have experienced an aberration. A memorable one, and not in a good way. :P

For the sake of local-eats pedantry, I'll correct the observation above: Empress came first, then Emperor. Ai-Ling Wang came here from Atlanta, I believe (or maybe Chicago) to open it, but the Hunan-Sichuan wave hit here like a tsunami and there were maybe a half-dozen within a short time of each other. I'm pretty sure Phoenix Dragon (which moved from Preston to Dupont Circle) pre-dated them, and House of Hunan and a few others were very close.

I neglected to mention Sachicoma, which introduced sushi fairly early in the '80s (and took over a downtown lunch counter to serve sushi one day a week, on Thursdays) before that.

But yeah, it's been a flow, although I'm not sure I think it was as steady as you do ... very fast progress in the late '70s to late '80s, then perhaps a slowdown in the '90s perhaps influenced by both the GHWBush recession and the diminution of serious dining coverage by Gannett. Things picked up again during the dot-com boom, with considerable ethnic diversity following the Mexican/Central American diaspora and strong refugee programs bringing in a much more diverse community (Bosnian, Cuban, Russian, Senegalese, etc., from the '90s forward.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Jay M. » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:55 pm

.
Last edited by Jay M. on Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Ethan Ray » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:29 am

Jay M. wrote:
Ethan Ray wrote:...I applaud those chefs in town who are not afraid to push this notion and to offer comparable options without sacrificing quality, seasonality or their own integrity as chefs.

The fact of the matter is that strive as we may, without a dining public who is both interested and educated enough to appreciate creativity, and not being stuck eating the same mainstays of the past 20 years... and without chefs who are willing to try to push their clientele to think beyond the traditional notions of food and dining...


Ethan, we'll be at The Oakroom in the next couple of weeks. What dishes do you recommend so that we can sample the creativity you describe? Should we wait to hear of special offerings on the night we visit?



We're actually getting ready to change the menu again, and I have no idea what will make the final cut for the new menu, or if you will be in before or after the switch.

I will maintain though, the best way to dine with us at the Oakroom is to have a tasting menu.
The more courses the better! ;)
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Michael Sell » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:46 am

s
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Re: GQ disses Louisville Food

by Rob Coffey » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:02 am

Steve P wrote:As for your comments regarding airline "hubs"...be careful what you wish for. Having just "graduated" a couple of years ago from a 25 year career in the aviation industry I wouldn't wish being a "hub" city on anyone. The point however is mute because (and I'll bet ya something nice) a hub ain't never-ever gonna happen in Louisville.


We are a major hub for one airline. Of course, it isnt a passenger airline. :)
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