5 Guys Burgers & Fries - Summit

[Robin Garr]

any other opinions about red robin?

Chain.

I've got mixed feelings about Red Robin burgers. I had a couple there that are very good and a couple that were so so. One thing I do like is they don't insist on over cooked hamburger and will cook one medium for you. Their onion rings and garlic fries are addicting. Overall, I don't think they have a bad burger, much better than most other chains although they are a little overpriced. I do certainly however prefer them over WW Cousins.

While I agree that some of Red Robin burgers are good, and the onion rings/garlic fries are OK, overall:

1. They cook medium-well to well (server asks if you want a little pink or fully cooked, but I've never seen a bit of pink in burgers ordered "as rare as you can make them")

2. Expensive

3. I personally think Cousins is twice the burger for half the price!

WW Cousins is consistently my favorite burger in Louisville. I really do like 5 Guys, Red Robin was pretty good but overpriced. Kern's Corner and Bambi Bar have great burgers too.

[Robin Garr]

WW Cousins is consistently my favorite burger in Louisville. I really do like 5 Guys, Red Robin was pretty good but overpriced. Kern's Corner and Bambi Bar have great burgers too.

Add Granville Inn for another excellent burger.

I have to agree about Cousins' burger, though, and was surprised to see Mark's diss on them. I don't think much of Cousin's counter service in recent years ... it seems to have gone from friendly and articulate to sullen McDonald's fast-food style, and I'm not sure what's up with that. But I'd still put up a Cousins burger against any in town.

Re: 5 Guys Burgers & Fries - Summit

Postby Robin Garr » Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:09 am

annemarie m wrote:any other opinions about red robin?


Chain.

As in? Chain bad or surprised chain food isn't half bad?

[Robin Garr]

As in? Chain bad or surprised chain food isn't half bad?

This is a long-running discussion here, but in my opinion:

(1) In any economic times, but especially in recessionary times, I believe in aggressively and preferentially supporting locally owned and operated businesses, and that certainly includes places to eat and drink and buy groceries, beverages and specialty food products. Cousins over Red Robin. Lotsa Pasta and Highland Seafood over Whole Foods. Pat's over Ruth's Chris.

(2) As a general rule, the larger the chain and the more distant its management, the more corporate its governance is likely to be, and thus the more likely it is to be ruled by the quarterly balance sheet and to discourage the kind of risk-taking that can result in greatness.

(3) All that being said, in the interest of covering the region's entire dining industry, I will check out and review chains, and I will do it fairly. (See my positive reviews of Bonefish, Carrabba's, Buca di Beppo and many others as evidence that I can do this.)

But, bottom line, there's a recession on. I'll personally devote most of my food-and-drink spending to local businesses, and I'll encourage my friends to do so, and I'll encourage my readers to do so. It's a philosophical, political and ethical decision, and I'm comfortable with it.

Rant out.

As in? Chain bad or surprised chain food isn't half bad?

This is a long-running discussion here, but in my opinion:

(1) In any economic times, but especially in recessionary times, I believe in aggressively and preferentially supporting locally owned and operated businesses, and that certainly includes places to eat and drink and buy groceries, beverages and specialty food products. Cousins over Red Robin. Lotsa Pasta and Highland Seafood over Whole Foods. Pat's over Ruth's Chris.

(2) As a general rule, the larger the chain and the more distant its management, the more corporate its governance is likely to be, and thus the more likely it is to be ruled by the quarterly balance sheet and to discourage the kind of risk-taking that can result in greatness.

(3) All that being said, in the interest of covering the region's entire dining industry, I will check out and review chains, and I will do it fairly. (See my positive reviews of Bonefish, Carrabba's, Buca di Beppo and many others as evidence that I can do this.)

But, bottom line, there's a recession on. I'll personally devote most of my food-and-drink spending to local businesses, and I'll encourage my friends to do so, and I'll encourage my readers to do so. It's a philosophical, political and ethical decision, and I'm comfortable with it.

Rant out.

Robin,

It's hard to argue with your logic and I echo your devotion to the local establishments but please don't ignore the fact that the "chains" DO create jobs and do create a positive economic impact. Speaking strictly to economics, with the exception of the profits which leave town via the evil masters, I would hazard a guess that the economic impact to the local economy of a mid-sized chain restaurant is more or less the same as a mid-sized local establishment.

Just offering a sightly different view.

I have to agree about Cousins' burger, though, and was surprised to see Mark's diss on them. I don't think much of Cousin's counter service in recent years ... it seems to have gone from friendly and articulate to sullen McDonald's fast-food style, and I'm not sure what's up with that. But I'd still put up a Cousins burger against any in town.

I think you hit the nail on the head there Robin. The service along with the atmosphere with I feel is quite dark and not very interesting probably turns me off more than the food. However we all know those are a big portion of any dining experience. Of course even though they are a local restaurant, they are actually a knockoff of the Fuddruckers chain so they really are not original. Actually I've eaten at several Fuddruckers while traveling and found them much more enjoyable!

[Robin Garr]

Steve, you know your view is welcome ... debate - preferably friendly and courteous, but still debate - is a big part of what we do here, and the forum would be much more boring without it.

Also, we're all entitled to our own opinins and those opinions deserve respect.

That said (taking off gloves) ... I'm not so sure about the economic impact being the same. Basing this both on simple logic and on life at the Courier-Journal as it went through the shift from local to chain ownership: Corporate management, especially large corporate based out of town, funnels a substantial amount of revenue out of town as profits that get boxed up and UPS'd back to the Mothership. That doesn't happen when the Mothership is local. The chains, again by virtue of corporate management, tend to be more likely to cut quality corners for profit (although I understand and agree that this varies). As a general rule, though, these variables seem just about dead certain. We could probably dig up some stats about the "circulator effect" and money staying in the community, but I've got to break for lunch. At a local eatery.

As in? Chain bad or surprised chain food isn't half bad?

It's hard to argue with your logic and I echo your devotion to the local establishments but please don't ignore the fact that the "chains" DO create jobs and do create a positive economic impact. Speaking strictly to economics, with the exception of the profits which leave town via the evil masters, I would hazard a guess that the economic impact to the local economy of a mid-sized chain restaurant is more or less the same as a mid-sized local establishment.

Just offering a sightly different view.

Steve, you know your view is welcome ... debate - preferably friendly and courteous, but still debate - is a big part of what we do here, and the forum would be much more boring without it.

Also, we're all entitled to our own opinins and those opinions deserve respect.

That said (taking off gloves) ... I'm not so sure about the economic impact being the same. Basing this both on simple logic and on life at the Courier-Journal as it went through the shift from local to chain ownership: Corporate management, especially large corporate based out of town, funnels a substantial amount of revenue out of town as profits that get boxed up and UPS'd back to the Mothership. That doesn't happen when the Mothership is local. The chains, again by virtue of corporate management, tend to be more likely to cut quality corners for profit (although I understand and agree that this varies). As a general rule, though, these variables seem just about dead certain. We could probably dig up some stats about the "circulator effect" and money staying in the community, but I've got to break for lunch. At a local eatery.

And, as long as we're beating our heads against the wall, I've got to put in the difference between corporate owned locations of chains (which tend to send out virtually all profits) versus a franchise operation (in which a significantly smaller percentage leaves town, and where the local franchisee has a larger or smaller ability to run things "his way" depending on the franchise agreement and the particular chain).

All the philosophic ramblings aside I eat local because by and large the food is just better. There is more care and devotion to the final product - it's not some homogenized semi pre-prepared concoction.

That being said just saying you won't eat at a chain because it's a "corporate entity" in a sense discourages success.

Let's take an example:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony Boombozz expand beyond being a mini-chain. Assuming the pizza remains the same do you stop patronizing them? If they have 10 units...a 100...500?

On the other hand was there ever a time, 20+ years ago, when Papa Johns served really dynamite pizza? I don't think so...the box and the pizza have always been indistinguishable. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now and I bet they have more employees and do more economic good for this town today than all the independent pizza restaurants combined.

My philosophy is follow the good food.

I am a bit nervous about this, so don't bite, but I have seen recent trends in conversation that make me feel the need to write too much. Again.

Since this is all about the food, and since samurai don't need gloves to take off...

I understand the Man, and I understand the local pride. I gave years of my life to working as a corporate officer, and was one of those in the field trying to bridge the corporate expectations for consistency with my own personal view (not shared by my bosses) of the importance of individuality.

I currently work for two local and privately owned businesses, love it, and love it. I haven't experienced the blessing of loving my job before, but I am more in love with the blessing of having a paycheck. Keeping the economy always in mind.

I am also married to a man whose father is now VP of Operations (from starting off as the man called in the middle of the night to fix the printers) for an old and venerable newspaper, who was part of a team of two local dailies who combined forces to ensure that Gannette did NOT take over their operation, and remove their own individuality. He has told many stories from his view of their tactics, and their destruction of newspapers.

I have heard, and agree with many of, the comments about the CJ and it's deterioration since the corporate giant took it over. Even still, I think that using Gannette as a model for anything corporate, and by default a chain, is extreme.

When it comes to food, I do think about where my dollar goes. I think about the food. And the experience. And the service of the persons who I run into. I also think about the food. There has yet to be a time when a random image of a millionaire on his yacht(s) burning fuel makes me turn around. Crappy service is found everywhere at favourite, local places (Juanita's a few years ago, anyone? and yes, even the beloved Granville) and I have waxed on my own return to Mai's Thai because of the food (to go)! Mai's money goes to a non-specific religious temple in Thailand, and she is working to build a local temple in Louisville. But I really go for the food.

My dollar pays for the salary of the person who serves me, who preps my food, who cooks my food, who answers the phone, who pays the bills, the funds of which are invested further in local utilities and economy. The razor thin margin of profit that ends up somewhere else is just that, marginal. If I get good food and accompanying experience, then I consider it a dollar well spent. If I support anything local, including the job of the person I am making eye contact with, then icing on the cake.

The word "chain" has such negative connotations, without specific definition. When will Spinelli's be considered a chain? Impellizeri's, BBC, NABC Ceviche, Heine Bros, JGumbos (local and franchised) City Cafe, any of the Grisanti's, Wick's? I agree with Robin about the need to champion locals, and my Chef admonishes me with "local local local" every time I remark that this is the 5th time I've heard that song on WFPK today. (C'mon, you know what I mean ). But it seems like I have read (perhaps too much into) some hesitation when people speak of chain experiences, and some very strong responses that only reinforce this hesitation. Local local local indeed, but if we love them simply because of proximity and the assumption that pride in workmanship is only available in folks who are "local", then I think somewhere the food, and the experience we all love, gets lost. And the freedom to enjoy it without thinking too hard.

Let me be the one first branded for saying this, I LOVE McDonalds fries, fresh from the fryer, and with the 2nd Street attitude to spare.

That was freeing, if not brief. That said, support your local guys, the folks who live with you. The Man does exist, while he is behind the curtain, he is NOT controlling anyone's every move. We are.

Support Your Local Us. And I'm out.

[Robin Garr]

Mark, that's an excellent question, and I think Tony is a bold enough guy that he won't mind being used as an example. I think a local eatery can grow into a mini-chain with success as long as it scales up with care and as long as management is the owner and he's hands-on and retains a commitment to quality.

I think when a chain becomes so large that ownership can't keep a close eye on all the properties, or becomes more focused on corporate business than individual property business, things start to slip.

Let's pick an example or two: Gumbo A Go-Go, later J. Gumbo's, tried to grow up fast and scaled up poorly. Owner Billy Fox lost control, and corporate made decisions about shipping out commissary fare in frozen single-serving portions; it appeared that there was little control over local managers. As a result, a few properties stayed good, but some of them sucked, and the public quickly noticed. Happily, Billy & Co. seem to be pulling control back, and it shows.

Tumbleweed? Turned from a lovable one or two local spots (New Albany and Mellwood) into a regional chain. Its nature and personality changed beyond imagination. The old 'weed is gone, and we'll never get it back.

I might cite Bearno's as another case that was a pretty good single local property on Taylorsville Road and is now a local chain with considerable variation in quality among properties.

Short answer: It varies. But with growth comes increasing challenge to quality, and I think even the best manager has a hard time keeping individual excellence when a chain passes a certain size.

Let's take an example:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony Boombozz expand beyond being a mini-chain. Assuming the pizza remains the same do you stop patronizing them? If they have 10 units...a 100...500?

On the other hand was there ever a time, 20+ years ago, when Papa Johns served really dynamite pizza? I don't think so...the box and the pizza have always been indistinguishable. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now and I bet they have more employees and do more economic good for this town today than all the independent pizza restaurants combined.

My philosophy is follow the good food.

Mark, that's an excellent question, and I think Tony is a bold enough guy that he won't mind being used as an example. I think a local eatery can grow into a mini-chain with success as long as it scales up with care and as long as management is the owner and he's hands-on and retains a commitment to quality.

I think when a chain becomes so large that ownership can't keep a close eye on all the properties, or becomes more focused on corporate business than individual property business, things start to slip.

Let's pick an example or two: Gumbo A Go-Go, later J. Gumbo's, tried to grow up fast and scaled up poorly. Owner Billy Fox lost control, and corporate made decisions about shipping out commissary fare in frozen single-serving portions; it appeared that there was little control over local managers. As a result, a few properties stayed good, but some of them sucked, and the public quickly noticed. Happily, Billy & Co. seem to be pulling control back, and it shows.

Tumbleweed? Turned from a lovable one or two local spots (New Albany and Mellwood) into a regional chain. Its nature and personality changed beyond imagination. The old 'weed is gone, and we'll never get it back.

I might cite Bearno's as another case that was a pretty good single local property on Taylorsville Road and is now a local chain with considerable variation in quality among properties.

Short answer: It varies. But with growth comes increasing challenge to quality, and I think even the best manager has a hard time keeping individual excellence when a chain passes a certain size.

Let's take an example:

I wouldn't be surprised to see Tony Boombozz expand beyond being a mini-chain. Assuming the pizza remains the same do you stop patronizing them? If they have 10 units...a 100...500?

On the other hand was there ever a time, 20+ years ago, when Papa Johns served really dynamite pizza? I don't think so...the box and the pizza have always been indistinguishable. I didn't like it then and I don't like it now and I bet they have more employees and do more economic good for this town today than all the independent pizza restaurants combined.

My philosophy is follow the good food.

I can agree with just about all of that.

It's interesting that these changes and challenges are across our economy and not just food. I have been in private practice for over 10 years and loved being a local, self determined individual. As of March 1 we sold our practice to a local hospital and they hired us back. We made this change for short-term financial reasons and for long-term protection from an uncertain future. I'm having to choke down company "Kool Aid" that I find different, shall we say, to my way of doing things.

[Robin Garr]

My heart goes out to you, Mark.

I tried to steer clear of this analogy, but what has happened to the Courier-Journal since Gannett Corp. took over is really too obvious an example to ignore. I might also mention Hilliard-Lyons going under the PNC umbrella. Or the loss of most of our local banks to chains and the loss in neighborhood-level service that this entails. In other words, you are correct: It works across the economy and not just food.

It's interesting that these changes and challenges are across our economy and not just food. I have been in private practice for over 10 years and loved being a local, self determined individual. As of March 1 we sold our practice to a local hospital and they hired us back. We made this change for short-term financial reasons and for long-term protection from an uncertain future. I'm having to choke down company "Kool Aid" that I find different, shall we say, to my way of doing things.