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Marsha L.

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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Marsha L. » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:20 am

I just want to apologize to everyone reading for my having used the word "literally" THREE times in this thread. Awkward, repetitive syntax - and not worthy of someone who considers herself a budding writer.

Maybe I should go back to schoolll :twisted:
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by RonnieD » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:22 am

Speaking as someone who made his bones coming up through the ranks I can honestly say that I have mixed feelings about those who have attended culinary school. I don't think the school itself is evil, but I do think that you only get out of it what you put in it. I have known people like Marsha who used the training at culinary school as a boost to their passion for food, a means of delving deeper into the world of food. I have also known (and worked with/hired) people who went to culinary school and thought it made them a master chef because they graduated, meanwhile they were literally unable to crack an egg (no joke).

Ultimately I think if you have a passion for food and a real desire to learn the trade, then there is a LOT culinary school can offer you and much to be gained by going. Where culinary training goes wrong is when you expect things from the training that it simply cannot give you. There is no substitute for being eight tickets behind and low on salmon with three hours left to go in a dinner service. Culinary schools rarely teach you this. (I am not shocked by Marsha's revelation regarding her two instructors having never worked in a professional kitchen).

The others in this thread are giving you really, really great practical advise with regard to this matter, listen to them. It sounds to me like you have at least an interest in food service, if not a full-blown passion. Hang in there, take any pantry job or any commis position you can get, even if it is just weekends, and start learning. If you still have a zeal for it after being beat down by trying to juggle unevenly timed entrees on a twelve top and not having enough sautee pans to get the job done because the dishwasher walked out an hour into service, maybe culinary school is another worthwhile step on your path to greatness...
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Marsha L. » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:30 am

After everything is said and done, I always tell myself that if I win the lottery and open my own restaurant, if anyone wants to work in my kitchen I will simply ask them to go into the kitchen and make me three eggs: one perfectly hard-cooked ("boiled" is a misnomer, you shouldn't boil eggs, you should simmer them), one plain omelet, and one poached with a runny yolk. If you can deliver those three eggs to me without asking me a bunch of questions or freaking out (for instance, you might have to find the eggs and the pans and the water and the butter yourself), then you can work for me - and at that point I don't care if you're the head of the CIA, Anthony Bourdain, or a guy that just lost his dishwashing gig at Burger King.

I cannot tell you how many overcooked boiled eggs I have seen in my few years of working pantry. Some cooks that think they're hot shit when it comes to making up specials, or how much kitchen heat they can stand - can't keep an eye on a boiled egg to make sure they don't over cook it.

Edited to add: Nobody I currently work with! Really! Those guys are egg-ninjas!
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Chris Atchley » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:46 am

I cant thank you guys enough for all the info, it has been very eye opening. It appears I have a lot to consider. I'm so glad I decided to post this topic, I have been lurking since September, and I must say I've really enjoyed it, and have learned so much already.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Marsha L. » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:01 am

Dude - don't be discouraged. On the flip side of this possibly-bitter-coin, there are about a ZILLION great, independent restaurants to work at in this town. And people will ALWAYS need to eat, so you won't ever be out of a job in your life again, no matter how bad the economy gets.

Just make sure your wife has a good, decent, main-stream job which includes health insurance for you and all your kids.

My boyfriend won't (or so far, hasn't - it's a mystery! How can he resist somebody that makes creme brulee like me?) ask me to marry him, but luckily he works for a progressive company that actually provides "significant other" insurance. I'm probably one of only a few dozen or so independent-restaurant cooks in the whole city that can actually go to the doctor without worrying about how much it'll cost. I'm thankful every day for that.

On the other hand, my boyfriend doesn't have clients sending him thank-you cards and inviting him to their kids' birthday parties, like I do. There's a lot to be said for our profession - it might be short on TRADITIONAL job perks , but long - VERY long - on unconventional ones.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by TP Lowe » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:31 am

Fascinating thread for those of us who are only interested in the production end of the restaurant scene. Thanks, Marsha - you should write a book!
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Laura T » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:02 am

I totally have enjoyed reading this, especially Marsha's culinary school story. I graduated from Bellarmine with a degree in sociology and $10,000 in debt. Then I decided that I really wanted to go to culinary school, so I went to Sullivan part-time on nights and weekends for a year. I had a meltdown when, after a year, I was offered a job making $8 an hour and I realized that I had, in a year's time, already doubled my student loan debt from $10,000 to $20,000. Of course, your loan payments are suspended while you are in school, so it's easy to not think about how big the monthly payments are going to be when you get out. For me, knowing how tight money had been before Sullivan, when I was making a salary equivalent to more than $8 an hour, and when my student loan debt was way less, I felt that living on $8 an hour would be impossible. So I turned down the job, dropped out of culinary school, and went back to the job that my bachelor's in sociology had led me to. I still have the office job but I dream of cake.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Leah S » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:10 am

I will echo what everyone else has said. I did graduate from Sullivan with a Summa (flips hair) Cum Laude degree in Baking and Pastry Arts. However, my situation was/is pretty unique. First, I knew I was walking back into my own business and taking it in a new direction. I was pretty sure that having that "paper" was gonna help and frankly it has. In my very specialized small corner of the industry, being a degreed pastry chef sets me apart and augments my marketing. I was also fortunate in that I didn't have to take out any loans. Very fortunate.

So my first advice, is know where you want to be after you graduate and why/how going to culinary school will help.

My second piece of advice is something Marsha brought up and is always my advice too. Challenge everything you hear. ALL classes can be taken by challenge test. I challenged (and passed) a baking class and a baking lab. When I asked about whether or not I could challenge, I got the answer, it's never been done. So I was the first. I locked myself in my office for the weekend and taught myself Access via an Access for Dummies book, learned just enough (I already knew Word and Excel) and passed a challenge test for the keyboarding class. I had already had two years of college level French which I successfuly argued was the language of cooking and should be accepted in lieu of the one semester of culinary Spanish required. And on and on. I challenged many classes. The advantage is that then you don't have to pay tuition for them.

Also look at the pricing structure. If it's by the semester, then take as much as you can - like 20 credit hours. 24 if you can take it. You can sleep later in life. The idea is to get through as fast as you can to minimize costs. Everything is negotiable. Everything.

The other thing that I have to point out from a fellow mid(late)-career changer, is that you will be going to school with people that are much, and in my case, much, much younger. It's interesting. They will do some laughable things in the kitchen. They will be hung over. They will say some outraegous things and ask questions that will just make you shake your head in wonder. They each believe in their heart that they're gonna be the Next Food Network Star. And you'll meet some fellow students who are passionate about food and the craft of food and who will one day actually be a star. And it will be nice to have known them in school, so make friends with everybody. Everybody.

My final advice is, know where you want to be when you're done. And then decide if the process - this process of culinary school - is how to get there. For me, it was the shortest distance between the two points.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Chris Atchley » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:12 am

I'm not discouraged at all. I love food, not just eating it, but cooking it, and growing it also. I'm really intrigued by different flavor combination's and paring food with wine/beer. And since working at the Bristol I have found that I like the general hustle and bustle of the restaurant as well

Thankfully my wife does have a good secure job with insurance, (I personally believe the current insurance system is a sham but I'll save that for another thread) and we don't have any kids yet but, we do plan on having them.

I guess the bottom line is that, I'm 34 years old, and I can say I've never really been happy at a job. I never really noticed it until I saw how much my wife loves her job, and how much joy it brings her. Besides my wife/marriage food is my greatest passion and I would love to love to go to work everyday.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Chris Dunn » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:13 am

Laura T wrote:I dream of cake.


Don't we all?
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Leah S » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:14 am

Chris Dunn wrote:
Laura T wrote:I dream of cake.


Don't we all?


Well I cetrainly hope so!
:lol:
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Marsha L. » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:17 am

Thanks, everybody. Listen, I love what I do and I've never regretted for a minute changing careers - working at a desk would have sucked all the life out of me by now. And I really don't regret going to culinary school - it was a blast, and I've always loved going to school and am an excellent student.

I just wish I didn't owe the money. Sullivan is a well-respected school in the culinary industry - among other culinary schools, and among people that teach at other culinary schools. But in my view, it's too expensive. And going there did not increase my earning power. Nothing but first hand experience does that. Sure, I learned some neat things, and (importantly) gained a lot of technical/historical/interesting food-nerd brand knowledge that I might never have learned in a restaurant, but all the practical stuff they teach you can be learned on the job - while you're getting paid, instead of paying them.

So, Chris, my advice to you is: do it! Take the plunge and go to work in a kitchen, and if after you've worked in a kitchen for two years, borrowing the money to go to school still seems like something you want to do, well, there you go. It'll still be there!

Changing careers feels like jumping off a cliff - dangerous and thrilling. You might be poor, but you'll never be sorry.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Alan H » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:18 am

On an note that someone whom interviews and hires individuals with a Sullivan or J.C.C. background, I have experienced culture shock and the overall ( that is not what they taught me in school ) conversations.
We always look for strong canidates and work ethics, but alot of times reality kicks in when you are taking on a whole new enviroment and out of the comfort zones of a classroom.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Chris Atchley » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:38 am

Marsha L. wrote:Thanks, everybody. Listen, I love what I do and I've never regretted for a minute changing careers - working at a desk would have sucked all the life out of me by now. And I really don't regret going to culinary school - it was a blast, and I've always loved going to school and am an excellent student.

I just wish I didn't owe the money. Sullivan is a well-respected school in the culinary industry - among other culinary schools, and among people that teach at other culinary schools. But in my view, it's too expensive. And going there did not increase my earning power. Nothing but first hand experience does that. Sure, I learned some neat things, and (importantly) gained a lot of technical/historical/interesting food-nerd brand knowledge that I might never have learned in a restaurant, but all the practical stuff they teach you can be learned on the job - while you're getting paid, instead of paying them.

So, Chris, my advice to you is: do it! Take the plunge and go to work in a kitchen, and if after you've worked in a kitchen for two years, borrowing the money to go to school still seems like something you want to do, well, there you go. It'll still be there!

Changing careers feels like jumping off a cliff - dangerous and thrilling. You might be poor, but you'll never be sorry.


I would love to find a job working for someone who is willing to be a mentor to me but, with the way things are going in the local restaurant scene and the economy in general, I would think there are a lot for highly experienced cooks looking for jobs.
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Re: How many have gone to culinary school?

by Chris Atchley » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:44 am

Leah s wrote:I will echo what everyone else has said. I did graduate from Sullivan with a Summa (flips hair) Cum Laude degree in Baking and Pastry Arts. However, my situation was/is pretty unique. First, I knew I was walking back into my own business and taking it in a new direction. I was pretty sure that having that "paper" was gonna help and frankly it has. In my very specialized small corner of the industry, being a degreed pastry chef sets me apart and augments my marketing. I was also fortunate in that I didn't have to take out any loans. Very fortunate.

So my first advice, is know where you want to be after you graduate and why/how going to culinary school will help.

My second piece of advice is something Marsha brought up and is always my advice too. Challenge everything you hear. ALL classes can be taken by challenge test. I challenged (and passed) a baking class and a baking lab. When I asked about whether or not I could challenge, I got the answer, it's never been done. So I was the first. I locked myself in my office for the weekend and taught myself Access via an Access for Dummies book, learned just enough (I already knew Word and Excel) and passed a challenge test for the keyboarding class. I had already had two years of college level French which I successfuly argued was the language of cooking and should be accepted in lieu of the one semester of culinary Spanish required. And on and on. I challenged many classes. The advantage is that then you don't have to pay tuition for them.

Also look at the pricing structure. If it's by the semester, then take as much as you can - like 20 credit hours. 24 if you can take it. You can sleep later in life. The idea is to get through as fast as you can to minimize costs. Everything is negotiable. Everything.

The other thing that I have to point out from a fellow mid(late)-career changer, is that you will be going to school with people that are much, and in my case, much, much younger. It's interesting. They will do some laughable things in the kitchen. They will be hung over. They will say some outraegous things and ask questions that will just make you shake your head in wonder. They each believe in their heart that they're gonna be the Next Food Network Star. And you'll meet some fellow students who are passionate about food and the craft of food and who will one day actually be a star. And it will be nice to have known them in school, so make friends with everybody. Everybody.

My final advice is, know where you want to be when you're done. And then decide if the process - this process of culinary school - is how to get there. For me, it was the shortest distance between the two points.


What is the homework load like, especially with a full class schedule? would i be able to work nights and weekends or should i stick to working just weekends.
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