Let's move the discussion of corporations right out front.

First of all, I do not like to go to chains of any kind. I prefer locally owned businesses, but there are times when you bite the bullet and go to Target or Sears (ok, Sears not so much, but you know what I mean).

I've asked this question before, but no one ever seems to want to answer it: do you have a 401(k), IRA, retirement plan of some other sort, savings in mutual funds, individual securities, etc etc? How can you possibly be an investor an NOT be an equity owner of a large multinational business? If you hate "corporations" so much, how about divesting yourself of McDonald's, Kroger, IBM or the any other 10,000 potential names that might be held in your investment vehicles?

It would be great if every small business stayed small and never outgrew our city. But, what business owner doesn't want his or her business to grow? And, who is not subject to the allure of an IPO one day, or selling out to a larger business at a significant premium to what your business might be worth today? This whole concept is what makes America nearly unique in the world's economy.

Again, I'm not defending the proliferation of Applebee's or McDonalds. I don't care much for either one. But, so many act like they are so anti-big business, but the reality is we deal with them every day in many ways, and it doesn't mean you have to eat at a chain. But, it does make a lot of folks a bit disingenuous to rant about Big American Corporations (indirectly) and have their retirement bet on their success.

Whew. Done. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. And, in full disclosure, I'm an investment manager and most of my holdings are large multinationals. Have at me...

My vegetarian choices are based on my own personal philosophy of "do what you have to to live with yourself. Make the choices you can live with and move on." I eat fish. I do not eat pork, beef or chicken. Works for me.

I own stock in a bunch of ginormous companies. Frankly I'm not sure I know which ones. I told my financial guy to make me some moola. That also works for me.

I shop at (gasp) Sam's and Dawn for bakery supplies. A 50 pound bag of sugar at Sams is about $20, and is about $34 at Dawn. I buy my sugar from Sams. I've got to be able to price my products so that I can sell them. Works for me.

I don't eat at Olive Garden because I think the food is crap. I will eat at Macaroni Grill because I like their food. I also like Bonefish. My lunch at Chang's was good. But my meals this week at Equus and Limestone blow all those others out of the water. So, when I need to eat I will try to plan ahead and choose a place that meets my requirements. If I haven't planned ahead, I will choose a place that is available. That also works for me.

I do try my best to support local independents. After all, I AM one! I make the best decisions I can in order to live with myself and my beliefs. Then I move on. Works for me.

[Robin Garr]

I've asked this question before, but no one ever seems to want to answer it: do you have a 401(k), IRA, retirement plan of some other sort, savings in mutual funds, individual securities, etc etc? How can you possibly be an investor an NOT be an equity owner of a large multinational business? If you hate "corporations" so much, how about divesting yourself of McDonald's, Kroger, IBM or the any other 10,000 potential names that might be held in your investment vehicles?

I don't see these issues as being entirely related, TP. I love my animals and actually feel a little funny about chowing down on cow, pig and lamb, but I manage to keep these issues separate in my head as I buy those nice, sanitary, neatly packaged little units of meat at the grocery store.

I think the post-Reagan trend toward the corporation-as-person with a collection of rights has gone too far, and I think the notion of fiduciary responsibility has been taken to stupid lengths when it not merely permits but demands taking short-cuts to benefit the stockholder ahead of the consumer or the employee. I think we ignore at our peril that the corporate state is ultimately a fascist state, and I do believe that we've been headed in that direction for the past generation and may still be, although the absurd excesses of the Bushies may <i>possibly</i> be working to turn things at least slightly off that course.

But as Leah said, I live in the real world, not an imaginary world, and I see no particular conflict between avoiding shopping at WalMart while asking the nice man at Hilliard Lyons to make my investments grow just as fast as he possibly can.

I do try my best to support local independents. After all, I AM one! I make the best decisions I can in order to live with myself and my beliefs. Then I move on. Works for me.

Yeah, that's pretty much me, too. There's a finite amount of time, money and energy, and I'd prefer investing them in someone like me who's makin a "different" -- notice I didn't use "difference."

I suppose it goes back to what Ron said earlier, i.e., not understanding the notion of passionate attachments to bloated corporate monoliths. I simply can't do it, even if I'm not 100% perfect in applying my principles. In the end, it is a matter of principle, a place where I've decided to make some semblance of a stand, albeit imperfect.

Perhaps there's nothing to be gained from artisanal tires or industrial parts or what not, but there is something to be gained from the value that small and slow and unique and personal adds -- ADDS -- to the experience of food and drink. Corporate entities simply can't do that by their very nature, which is to sacrifice individualism for the greater profit of combined resources. Maybe there's a fine place for that in insurance, but it's not what I seek in a beer.

I suppose it goes back to what Ron said earlier, i.e., not understanding the notion of passionate attachments to bloated corporate monoliths. I simply can't do it, even if I'm not 100% perfect in applying my principles. In the end, it is a matter of principle, a place where I've decided to make some semblance of a stand, albeit imperfect.

I've always appreciated not only your way of stating your beliefs, Ron, but also your beliefs in general. I hope I didn't give the impression I have some great love of the "monloiths," as that isn't the case. It's why I left my friends at the afore mentioned (by Robin) previously-local brokerage house I spent fifteen years building before it was sold to a large northeast bank - and I now work with six good friends and only about 130 clients (which are, thank goodness, sort of "monoliths" in their own way). I think we agree on the importance of producing a product, whether beer of performance results, that we can control to a large degree and of which we are proud.

I don't see these issues as being entirely related, TP.


But as Leah said, I live in the real world, not an imaginary world, and I see no particular conflict between avoiding shopping at WalMart while asking the nice man at Hilliard Lyons to make my investments grow just as fast as he possibly can.

See, this is where I do see the issues related. It's hard for me to imagine that possibly owning the company while damning it's impact on society isn't a bit hard to explain. I don't know that you own WalMart, but I'll bet you do own something that has characteristics that make it a good investment but a bad citizen. It is almost impossible not to. Heavens knows I'm not snowy pure in adherence to my principles (although I give it a heck of an effort), but I do appreciate that we just admit it and move on.

I think my thread was almost a visceral response to the constant corporate bashing here, when our economy is in many ways built around those very things that allow business to grow. I love being in Europe and enjoying the qualities of a lifestyle that is anti-corporate in so many ways, but at the same time I love being in America and enjoying the many benefits that unbridled entrepreneurship offers!

In order not to continue to sound like a hard right conservative, I should add that I have been a member of the Slow Food movement for many, many years. And I just put a pot of red sauce on for dinner tonight while you guys were answering the thread, and also sliced a turkey breast for forty guests coming for lunch tomorrow (two big hams to be sliced, tomorrow, too). So, I'm doing my best to offer a non-corporate Easter to my wife's family!

If you hate "corporations" so much,

I do not HATE corporations. I do hate it when some very large corporations are able to get away with bad behavior that a small business would get in big trouble for. I also have some issues with the amount of power that they wield, especially in terms of marketing in public relations.

That being said, I invest in them, and I do so fully cognizant of the fact that they should be held accountable for negligent and criminal behavior, even if that means my investments suffer.

I think corporations do what they are supposed to do: grow and make more money every year. However, that often comes at the expense of smaller businesses that engage in type of commerce that might be more conducive to my preferences, especially when it comes to food, art, music, and entertainment in general, but certainly includes retail of all sorts. I appreciate the amount of money that Wal-mart has earned for its dogged pursuit of profit; that's the american way. But, just as American is my right to voice opposition to the effect that it has had on small town American and family owned businesses.

Checks and balances.

I do hate it when some very large corporations are able to get away with bad behavior that a small business would get in big trouble for.

Checks and balances.

Amen to both statements (and not much disagreement with what was in the middle. If you want to really get into the weeds with one of the worst examples of corporate fraud and greed, read "The Smartest Guys in the Room," which is about the rise and fall of Enron - the poster child for everything that can go wrong in big business.

Now I'll take my left-side hat and put it on: I think the most aggregious examples of corporate wrong doing are in CEO pay. A perusal of this year's proxies makes one want to take a shower given the new regs concerning the full disclose of corporate compensation. Disgusting in many cases.

I also think there is a big difference between corporate bashing and criticizing certain corporations. For example, I like how Target does business. I do not like how Wal-Mart does business. Not liking the latter does not make me a "corporate basher", but it does make me someone who engages in critical thinking about my consumer choices.

That was the basis of my comment earlier today. Why does criticism of a thing cause people here to act as though they have been criticized as a person? I don't get it. Criticism and analytical thought are GOOD things.

and donate more money per year to local and national charities then any other company in the United States....thats a fact jack....

Criticism and analytical thought are GOOD things.

Which is why I started this thread. I do think it is an interesting debate on its own, unrelated to just the dining issue. In fact, I'm surprised Robin didn't throw me out for starting an unrelated topic!

and donate more money per year to local and national charities then any other company in the United States....thats a fact jack....

Wal-Mart does more philanthropy than Bill Gates and Microsoft? You're on crack. I knew it.

Philanthropy is a great thing, but it has a major downside when compared with government financed program. What if you happen to suffer from a disease that Wal-Mart or Microsoft don't care about and it depends solely on charitable contributions? uh-oh.

we need private philanthropy and government programs to exist side by side.

and donate more money per year to local and national charities then any other company in the United States....thats a fact jack....

Wal-Mart does more philanthropy than Bill Gates and Microsoft?

Don't forget Warren Buffet ... largest single charitable commitment in history.

Yes they do...as the largest employer in the United staes they do....

An excellent and thoughtful dialogue about a pertinent and important topic, marred only by a gnat buzzing in and out of SPLAAATTT.

Have a nice bland and exceedingly Robertian meal at the Lobster, gn...er, Robert.