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S Cruz

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by S Cruz » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:wow

what an interesting discussion of politics, beer, and ketchup

i just have one major point
The "macros" did not pave the way for the micros
quite the opposite in fact
The big 3 (now the big 2) have consistently attempted to (and succeeded in several cases)
1 - not allow fair distribution of micro products (given that almost all major distributors of beer in the current 3 tier system are economically bound to or directly owned by the big 3)
2 - use their sheer economic volume to out micros from particular venues (major sports venues for instance)
3 - utilize their girth to influence marketing agencies to not represent micro/import products (Heineken was a victim of this in the eighties)

Additionally American Macros have set not standard - the American Macro is a cheap imitation of a fine "German/Austrian/Bavarian/Eastern European" style


all great points, i suppose that i am just proud of my american heritage.
whoops, i've got to address this one too
"the best beer selection and heritage of anyone in the world."
the best selection possibly (certainly the greatest quantity of selections)
heritage? absolutely not
our four hundred years and some change of brewing in this country as immigrants to the Americas does not hold a candle to the Belgian and German traditions, or even come close to the advanced beer cultures of Ancient Egypt or Rome
our beer heritage is great, no doubt, but we brought it here with us from Europe primarily
and the Macros diluted this great heritage into the golden swill dominating todays market place
Eat, Drink, and Be Merry.
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Ryan B

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Ryan B » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:23 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:The big 3 (now the big 2) have consistently attempted to (and succeeded in several cases)
1 - not allow fair distribution of micro products (given that almost all major distributors of beer in the current 3 tier system are economically bound to or directly owned by the big 3)...


OK Shawn, I'll agree with many of your points but take exception to this one. Do you have a specific example that illustrates this? Being in the distribution business, I can say that I have not seen this manifest itself. Excluding brewery owned distributors (like the local AB branch), major breweries have little influence on how well other products are distributed in the market. Every distributor I'm familiar with has the goal to sell as much beer as they possibly can regardless of who the supplier is. Generally they prefer to sell higher priced micros over lower priced "economy" brands. If a particular micro has low distribution in a market it is more likely a reflection on both the distributor and the brewer who produces that brand, rather than any other brewer. In fact, distributors who carry one (or more) of the "big 3's" products are usually in a better position to grow distribution of craft and imported beers. Their businesses have the infrastructure required to support and deliver smaller volume brands to a greater portion of the market. As you point out, many distributors are "economically bound to the big 3", but rather than hurting micro distribution, one could actually make the argument that the revenues the big 3 generate for distributors have helped subsidize the growth of craft beer.
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Shawn Vest

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Shawn Vest » Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:52 pm

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-19702746.html

this is one example
google microbrew and antitrust and there are plenty more examples to be found

"major breweries have little influence on how well other products are distributed in the market", whoa, slow down
major breweries offer financial incentives for the placement of their product on the shelves and often provide a great deal of the "infrastructure" used to transport beer for the distributors - two of my three distributors deliver in BIG 3 trucks

distributors simply want to make a profit, in the current market profit seems to be highest with micros, this has not always been the case

it was certainly more of a struggle for Sierra to obtain national distribution than it will be for New Belgium

i'll agree that the growth of beer distribution infrastructure has helped in the distribution of micros, but i can't think of a clear instance in which any of the Big 3 deliberately aided micros
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
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Broc Smith

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Broc Smith » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:29 am

Ryan B wrote:
Shawn Vest wrote:The big 3 (now the big 2) have consistently attempted to (and succeeded in several cases)
1 - not allow fair distribution of micro products (given that almost all major distributors of beer in the current 3 tier system are economically bound to or directly owned by the big 3)...


OK Shawn, I'll agree with many of your points but take exception to this one. Do you have a specific example that illustrates this? Being in the distribution business, I can say that I have not seen this manifest itself. Excluding brewery owned distributors (like the local AB branch), major breweries have little influence on how well other products are distributed in the market. Every distributor I'm familiar with has the goal to sell as much beer as they possibly can regardless of who the supplier is. Generally they prefer to sell higher priced micros over lower priced "economy" brands. If a particular micro has low distribution in a market it is more likely a reflection on both the distributor and the brewer who produces that brand, rather than any other brewer. In fact, distributors who carry one (or more) of the "big 3's" products are usually in a better position to grow distribution of craft and imported beers. Their businesses have the infrastructure required to support and deliver smaller volume brands to a greater portion of the market. As you point out, many distributors are "economically bound to the big 3", but rather than hurting micro distribution, one could actually make the argument that the revenues the big 3 generate for distributors have helped subsidize the growth of craft beer.


I used to work for a big bad Budweiser distributor in Indianapolis. I respect their operation a great deal. It's unfortunate, but AB has bought microbreweries and shut them down. They much preferred to make their own costly stabs at what I will call "mass micro"

Amber Bock - Neither amber or bock

Anheuser World Select - Heineken start, Bud finish (Marketed poorly: Sold in to high-end accounts, should have been marketed to new to import drinkers who made not have cared for Heine's aftertaste at first)

Bare Knuckle Stout - Attempted Guinness competitor, b/c Diageo supposedly once claimed it would take over the stronghold on American beer distro w/ Guinness & Smirnoff Ice. I heard AB managed to lure a couple of brewmasters away.

Only recently has Budweiser taken the approach of buying and running the brewery at the attempt of keeping the product the same and profitting off of greater distrobution. When I left, Budweiser was most concerned over loss of beer sales in favor of liquor. I heard Bud was in the bidding to purchase Absolut from Sweden. Pernod-Ricard won the bidding war in the end.

Budweiser is a publicly traded company that has a responsibility to its stockholders. Hostile takeovers, spin-offs, and other such practices will occur the same as other businesses on the NYSE. It is what it is...

"major breweries have little influence on how well other products are distributed in the market" -Ryan B.

BF Beverage was the AB distributor in Indy until the late 1990's. They also put on most every Newcastle tap in town. When AB loaned one of their men the money to take over BF beverage, one of the stips was that they give up Newcastle and others to focus on AB brewed products. In my experience they do wield more power than one would like to believe.

As far as Roger's comments about Slugger Field/Macro-Brews/Ketchup: Exclusivity is the name of the game in every Venue or Chain. I'm pretty sure Heinz makes sure I can't have Red Gold ketchup at White Castle.
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Robin Garr

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Robin Garr » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:58 am

Good analysis. I can't quibble with much of it.

One point, though ...

Broc Smith wrote:I'm pretty sure Heinz makes sure I can't have Red Gold ketchup at White Castle.

Yet it amazes me what a fine quality Dusseldorf mustard is served in industrial packets at the Aluminum Palace.
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Ed Vermillion

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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Ed Vermillion » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:26 am

Robin Garr wrote:Yet it amazes me what a fine quality Dusseldorf mustard is served in industrial packets at the Aluminum Palace.



Not to mention a very good tartar sauce to go with that wily denizen of the deep: The Square Fish.
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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Robin Garr » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:30 am

Ed Vermillion wrote:The Square Fish.

Had me one of those last night at Slugger Field! Well, not the WC version, but it was every bit as geometric ...
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Fred Wilhelm

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Budweiser = Obillary for President

by Fred Wilhelm » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:39 pm

Fresh with a very distinct character of 'newness', lacking in any substance or flavor, a like companion to it's closed competitor, from an organization that would reinvent history if it could, and having a fanatical and devoted following among the lowest common denominator who consistently ignore the lack of quality?

Sounds like Budweiser = Barack Hussein Obama for President.

Although, he'd be more like...well, never mind. Wouldn't want to offend those of fragile, progressive sensibilities.

cheers
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carla griffin

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Re: Budweiser = Obillary for President

by carla griffin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:48 am

Fred Wilhelm wrote:Fresh with a very distinct character of 'newness', lacking in any substance or flavor, a like companion to it's closed competitor, from an organization that would reinvent history if it could, and having a fanatical and devoted following among the lowest common denominator who consistently ignore the lack of quality?


Fred... we're talking about current presidential candidates here. Not current presidents.
Carla
There is one thing more exasperating than a wife who can cook and won't, and that's a wife who can't cook and will. ~Robert Frost
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Re: Budweiser = Obillary for President

by Ed Vermillion » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:47 am

carla griffin wrote:
Fred Wilhelm wrote:Fresh with a very distinct character of 'newness', lacking in any substance or flavor, a like companion to it's closed competitor, from an organization that would reinvent history if it could, and having a fanatical and devoted following among the lowest common denominator who consistently ignore the lack of quality?


Fred... we're talking about current presidential candidates here. Not current presidents.



Thank you, Carla.

And thank you too, Fred for changing your avatar, it was creeping me out.
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Re: Budweiser = Obillary for President

by Robin Garr » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:00 am

Ed Vermillion wrote:And thank you too, Fred for changing your avatar, it was creeping me out.

"Fred" (assuming that is his real name) didn't change it. It was changed for him. He also won't be posting for a while, not until he contacts me so we can talk about whether he has any purpose in being here other than to be an Internet Troll.
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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by carla griffin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:05 am

Thank you Robin. I thought it may have been my fragile, progressive sensibilities. He really was a a$$ huh?
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There is one thing more exasperating than a wife who can cook and won't, and that's a wife who can't cook and will. ~Robert Frost
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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Robin Garr » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:06 am

carla griffin wrote:Thank you Robin. I thought it may have been my fragile, progressive sensibilities. He really was a a$$ huh?

Or a certain part of one ... ;)
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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Broc Smith » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:17 am

It seems that Fred was a rather inflammatory person with some sort of agenda.
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Re: Buying Budweiser = John McCain for President

by Robin Garr » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:21 am

Broc Smith wrote:It seems that Fred was a rather inflammatory person with some sort of agenda.

In all fairness, he'll have the opportunity to explain himself to me, privately, if he wishes.
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