Gourmet Blog Pt. II

[Robin Garr]

But sometimes it feels like the rest of us are morons.

Feelings come from within, Aaron. Nobody here is laying that on you.

This is the only thing I'm going to say about this issue - I won't debate it or defend it, because I've seen where that goes.

If you don't intend to debate or defend a position then it shouldn't be posted in a forum. The purpose of a forum is to discuss issues, not make statements about them. If you want to make statements without debating them are defending them become a politician!

I've said many things in this forum that did not agree with the majority yet I always felt that others would at least read my opinion and the point I was trying to make. They didn't have to agree with it and in many cases didn't, actually if everyone agreed with my opinions I'd be surprised!

Me personally; I use to visit this site to hopefully learn/share some info reguarding food/wine & general resturant operations. And frankly, I've grown tired of listening to adults arguing over petty things. And thats why I have participated less and less. It's sad, it really is.

Everyone that eats has an opinion on what they eat. If we had more lurkers throwing out their opinion it would be a great thing for an already good forum.

I appreciate Ethan's zeal and passion for food, as it is his job and life. We look at food in vastly different ways and I respect his opinion on food. Just food. I don't know Ethan and he doesn't know me. I'm sure that he could care a whit about my opinion on food and I am perfectly OK with that. I'm sure he doesn't know crap about fighting fire so we are even.

The forum doesn't always agree. I think that Royal India is marginal, Pat's Steakhouse is a rip-off and smoking should be banned from the planet. Those are my opinions. Debate them, agree with them, disagree with them. I have yet to see an angry mob with torches and truncheons in my yard, nor should I expect to. If we can't have a simple conversation about food then we are truly doomed and I don't believe that for an instant.

So lurkers stop lurking. Express your opinion (it's wrong ) but express it. We would welcome new blood.

Just don't be so damned sensitive about it.

No, sir, it is not. You have an absolute right to speak for yourself, but don't claim to be speaking for a "silent majority" to give weight to your opinion. That's just BS, and I'm calling it.

If that is the case, then i suppose it would be perfectly within reason that for the sake of your reporting means, that you should disclose all your sources whenever 'inside' knowledge about any restaurant dealings comes about.

I know i have personally emailed you about chef moves, restaurant management changes, 'word on the street' type stuff and you've posted such info.... and with out saying that i neither wanted my name attached to such 'inside info' and respected the fact that you have always kept your sources private unless publicly published documentation exists.

Perhaps referring to a 'silent majority' was a bit broad in spectrum, but i can say that my sentiments are echoing those who choose to not say so publicly.


Since there is no public documentation of what i have been saying about others contacts with me on their opinions of this matter, i can't back it up in writing, but saying my opinion is not that of just myself wholly, does not discredit my personal opinion(s).
Nor does it give you the right to be able to claim it's 100% BS; that is unless you can 100% prove to me that such sentiments do not exist at all.
(Which would be incredibly naive on anyone's part.)
And which you and i both cannot prove in either way to our favor.

If saying that between emails, PMs and personal conversation that the dialogues i've had do not give me any weight to say 'it's not just me', then the entire opinion process on here and everywhere is gone.
For that matter, i don't think it gives me any weight.
My only weight i carry in stating opinions is that of my own.
What is does do is give me a bit of personal drive to say something, if others won't.
And i stand by them as my own.
I not going to walk in blindly waving a battle flag against an army without knowing i have a few snipers who have my back; even if you can't see them. (and no, this is not a declaration of war, just a colorful analogy)

A Mark R. points out:

I've said many things in this forum that did not agree with the majority yet I always felt that others would at least read my opinion and the point I was trying to make.

It's one thing to read one persons lone opinion.
It's another if by reading, you realize that opinion is not only their own.
And by reading this, and you have similar thoughts.
Then you are not alone.

(i didn't intend for that to rhyme, i swear.)


This isn't a courtroom, and when it becomes one, then we'll all specify our sources.


What Aaron said about 'not realizing it's happening' really stand true here.
I've never tried to make this anything of a personal attack, but if even one thing a forum member says is BS, then why should i/we continue?
at that point everything becomes completely subjective to what you choose to deem admissible.

It's not like i'm walking around making absurd allegations like 'our forum leader only logs onto the website while fully nude.'

I just don't understand how the opinions on this forum are suddenly suspect and discredited when they fall into the realm or critical and contrary.

I don't think any one of us participating in this thread is deliberately trying to undermine the forum as a whole, the credibility of LHB, or anything related to either.

What i see as the entire focus of this thread is that in some respects there is a a vibe that some of us (see other documented posters in this thread) feel as if blinders are being worn.



Enough of the arguing.
frankly my fingers hurt and i should be out celebrating being another year older today. I'll end with these...



to get philosophical:

Getting offended at viewpoints that may be contrary or critical of you or yourself is a natural response, an inherent human defense mechanism.

Being able to except the possibility of truth or that a differing viewpoint than your own, look beyond your own faults and begin to honestly try to see through others eyes is what truly makes us wiser individuals. Righteous and open minded.



To put in a converse perspective:

Shortly before your last review of the Oakroom, you posted photos on the WineLoversForums from your meal.

Inference to cat spit and s*&t smeared down a toilet ensued.
(partially induced by your own loose suggestion).

We talked it out at work - livid, irrate, and offended.

'before he even posts his review, he's already trying to make fun of us?'

despite the fact that you were quick to defend us, you opened the door... and i saw it as one of the few moments where i saw a lack of class to your journalistic integrity.

But i/we had to stop and think...
I'd seen those plates go out hundreds of times, and never once looked at them in that way. i think it was said 'i never once have looked at a plate i've made and genuinely thought it looked like it has s%@t on it; i don't ever look at my food that way.'

We determined that for starters, the photos (particularly the angles) didn't do the plates justice, and helped this negativity.

secondly, we learned we had to not only look through our own eyes - as cooks, artists and craftsman/woman... but as through the eyes of the guest... that maybe, despite the fact that 'we get it' and know that that foam is unique in lightness, but also intensity of flavor...
maybe, just perhaps the guest isn't going to know that or 'get it' right away, and look at it first - not as food - but as something vile.


I've learned a lot about how to approach how i plate a dish, how the guest may perceive it; and how to achieve what i want without making you think i'm playing a tasteless joke on the plate. I learned that from you, Robin.

I opened my ears, eyes and sucked down my own pride to step back and take an objective point of view. And it's changed every bit of how i orchestrate a plate up. Not just that one plate, but deep down... how my entire thought process going into every plate is more conscious, more aware.

i'd like to think you understand...



(and my apologies for exceedingly lengthy replies.)

Everyone that eats has an opinion on what they eat. If we had more lurkers throwing out their opinion it would be a great thing for an already good forum.

I appreciate Ethan's zeal and passion for food, as it is his job and life. We look at food in vastly different ways and I respect his opinion on food. Just food. I don't know Ethan and he doesn't know me. I'm sure that he could care a whit about my opinion on food and I am perfectly OK with that. I'm sure he doesn't know crap about fighting fire so we are even.

The forum doesn't always agree. I think that Royal India is marginal, Pat's Steakhouse is a rip-off and smoking should be banned from the planet. Those are my opinions. Debate them, agree with them, disagree with them. I have yet to see an angry mob with torches and truncheons in my yard, nor should I expect to. If we can't have a simple conversation about food then we are truly doomed and I don't believe that for an instant.

So lurkers stop lurking. Express your opinion (it's wrong ) but express it. We would welcome new blood.

Just don't be so damned sensitive about it.

I appreciate your kind words Ed.
And yes, i respect opinion even if it's contrary to my own.

But i do believe the lurkers have valid opinions as well.


My opinions i make are no more valid than yours, Robin's, anyones.
I just have felt that over the past few months that it's almost as if there is a right or wrong opinion that seems to come through on these forums...
and i oftentimes have been found on the side considered to be 'wrong'.

my argument has never been that my opinion is more wrong or right than another's...
my argument is that opinions are being shut down and being labeled as right, wrong, fact or fiction.


One the forum begins to feel like an oligarchy, that's when people get heated, upset and start writing lengthy posts to fully attempt to convey their opinion(s) - and often times, speaking on behalf of those in the little villages.


Can we get back to democracy?

[Robin Garr]

i'd like to think you understand...

(and my apologies for exceedingly lengthy replies.)

Ethan, I think I do understand, and I appreciate your willingness to continue a discussion rather than getting angry. That's high-class.

I'll be brief. I'm on a separate deadline. There are two points, though, that I would like to make.

1. I feel that my use of Oakroom "foams" and "smears" in a discussion about that style of cookery on an international forum in which I did not name the Oakroom was entirely legitimate. I was curious to know, before I wrote my LouisvilleHotBytes review, what foodies in other parts of the world thought about it. I regret that some of the discussion turned joking, but no slight on the Oakroom was intended. It might be better to sever this discussion and carry it on in a separate thread, if you like, rather than further dilute the central issue here.

2. In your reply to Ed, you wrote, "One the forum begins to feel like an oligarchy, that's when people get heated, upset and start writing lengthy posts to fully attempt to convey their opinion(s) - and often times, speaking on behalf of those in the little villages. Can we get back to democracy?"

I do have a real problem with this. Declaring me an "oligarch" or "monarch" or "emperor" goes totally against the philosophy of this forum and the way I moderate it, and I believe this is obvious on its face. Anyone who thinks that's the way I operate this forum is projecting something, I know not what, but it's 100 percent counter to reality, and no, I don't think I'm hiding anything from myself. I do feel a strong need to respond forcibly to this kind of assertion and this kind of language, because I don't wish it to go un-challenged in front of all the mysterious lurkers.

Other than that, again, I appreciate your comments, Ethan, even if I don't agree with them all. And I can only point out, again, that I have not objected to your expressing them, and have not sought to censor them, now or ever. I think that speaks volumes, and I suggest you won't find many internet forums that are as loath to censor as this one.

i'd like to think you understand...

(and my apologies for exceedingly lengthy replies.)

Ethan, I think I do understand, and I appreciate your willingness to continue a discussion rather than getting angry. That's high-class.

I'll be brief. I'm on a separate deadline. There are two points, though, that I would like to make.

1. I feel that my use of Oakroom "foams" and "smears" in a discussion about that style of cookery on an international forum in which I did not name the Oakroom was entirely legitimate. I was curious to know, before I wrote my LouisvilleHotBytes review, what foodies in other parts of the world thought about it. I regret that some of the discussion turned joking, but no slight on the Oakroom was intended. It might be better to sever this discussion and carry it on in a separate thread, if you like, rather than further dilute the central issue here.

2. In your reply to Ed, you wrote, "One the forum begins to feel like an oligarchy, that's when people get heated, upset and start writing lengthy posts to fully attempt to convey their opinion(s) - and often times, speaking on behalf of those in the little villages. Can we get back to democracy?"

I do have a real problem with this. Declaring me an "oligarch" or "monarch" or "emperor" goes totally against the philosophy of this forum and the way I moderate it, and I believe this is obvious on its face. Anyone who thinks that's the way I operate this forum is projecting something, I know not what, but it's 100 percent counter to reality, and no, I don't think I'm hiding anything from myself. I do feel a strong need to respond forcibly to this kind of assertion and this kind of language, because I don't wish it to go un-challenged in front of all the mysterious lurkers.

Other than that, again, I appreciate your comments, Ethan, even if I don't agree with them all. And I can only point out, again, that I have not objected to your expressing them, and have not sought to censor them, now or ever. I think that speaks volumes, and I suggest you won't find many internet forums that are as loath to censor as this one.

Robin - in regards to the oligarchy comment:
I said 'feels like'. You know i've made joking quips about 'Chairman Garr' before, and i hope you know that i mean jest with it anytime i mention you in such a manner.

LHB forums have never been a sole monarchy, but there are at times it does feel like there is a select group whose opinions seem to weigh higher than others.
I didn't intend this comment to come off as a personal attack, but as a comparative reference, though maybe a bit concrete of one i will admit.
I hoped my 'feels like' preceeding the oligarchy reference would have offered a tangible reference without being overly wordy.
My apologies if it was taken 100% literal; i meant it in not such a definitive context.


Regarding the Oakroom thread on the Wine Lovers Discussion group -
I appreciate and understand weighing in opinions from an international opinion panel...

and i'll drop it enitrely after i point out this:
Culinary foam: Groovy or gross?

In which - if you read - you do name the Oakroom, the specific hotel it's located in, and what city.

and in the other thread:
More fun with molecular gastronomy: Caption this photo

The Oakroom is directly mentioned once again, the public toilet comments appear.

Part of the only reason we were overtly offended.
If the photos had been from 'anonymous restaurant' anywhere in the world... it would have been unsettling, but not come off as mean-spirited.

Not only is this bad enough that the conversation is taking place about cat spit and now public toilet smears, but the Oakroom's name is attached directly to both threads...




and no, i don't want to discuss this in another thread.
I was over this almost a year ago.

The only reason i've mentioned this further is, you did in fact mention the Oakroom by name.




And i do, again - appreciate your civility, and the fact that 99% of the time you do not censor anyone.
That does speak a lot about the open-endedness of this forum and it's host.