Gourmet Blog Pt. II

I don't know where the original post left...I got disgusted and stopped reading, but I went to send a similar reply early on and was bumped off.

First, since the host was not familiar with John T. Edge, I will provide a brief bio. As a writer, John T. has published at least 6 books, including Southern Belly, where he gives nod to several of Louisville's icons, including Hot Browns at The Brown Hotel and the Fish Frys at the Keswick Democratic Club. In regards to magazines, John T. is a columnist for the Oxford American, covers the South for Saveur, and is a contributing editor to Gourmet. John T. is also a quarterly columnist for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and regularly contributes to the New York Times. He has also been nominated for four James Beard awards and has appeared in every edition of Best Food Writing since 2001.

That’s his day job.

John T. Edge has also been the driving force behind the Southern Foodways Alliance. The SFA is an organization of, “chefs and academics, writers and eaters,” that, “documents and celebrates the diverse food cultures of the American South. We set a common table where black and white, rich and poor -- all who gather -- may consider our history and our future in a spirit of reconciliation.” There are over 800 members, including Louisville locals Edward Lee, Todd Richards, Jim Gerhardt, Kathy Cary, Sarah Fristchner, and Pableaux Johnson.

In fact, the Southern Foodways Alliance was the purpose of John T.’s latest visit. Their annual field trip will visit Louisville this summer, bringing those “chefs and academics, writers and eaters” to recognize what a unique food town we have. This is not the first time the SFA has been to Louisville. They hosted Camp Bacon ay the Brown Hotel a couple of years ago and before that they were instrumental in helping organize the benefit that raised funds for former Courier-Journal music and food critic Ronni Lundy when she developed cancer.

While John T. and others members of the SFA were researching the upcoming event, they spoke with CVB and city officials. They visited hotels, Glassworks, and the Pendennis Club. They spoke with bloggers, distillers, and writers. Chef jay Denham and I supped with John T. at the Mayan Café and I believe that breakfast at Toast was with long time friend Pableaux Johnson. It seems the only person those folks did not contact here may have been the forum’s moderator, but then maybe that was the point of the continuously mean-spirited and embarrassing posts.

I could argue the new format of blogposts as an extension of writer’s larger body of work, but I have gone on long enough. Also I will not be returning to this site. The emperor wears no clothes and I have had enough.

[Robin Garr]

First, since the host was not familiar with John T. Edge

For the record, I know who John T. <I>Edge</I> is. My "who are you talking about" post in that thread was a response to someone talking about a "John T." Didn't ring a bell for me without his last name.

I'm sorry to see you leave us, Jerry. Your input is valuable here, even if you have only posted nine times.

Let's not start up the blog train wreck again, though. I'm as over that as everyone else is.

First, since the host was not familiar with John T. Edge, I will provide a brief bio.

Jerry, sorry to say that even after reading your Bio I still don't know who he is or what he does. I also haven't heard about or know anything about the Southern Food Alliance. Obviously neither is very influential in the restaurant business since I've lived in several major cities of the southeast and have never heard of either this. You obviously don't know about the moderator nor any of the members of this forum nor their knowledge of Louisville restaurant scene. If you spent more time reading and trying to suggestions found in this forum you'd certainly develop a much greater knowledge of the Louisville restaurant scene. Don't criticize what you don't know about, I'm not criticizing John T. Edge nor the SFA, I'm only stating I don't know who they are nor what they do, you should have the same courtesy.

First, since the host was not familiar with John T. Edge, I will provide a brief bio.

Jerry, even after reading your Bio I don't know who John T. Edge is nor do I know what the Southern Food Alliance is. It's kind of like you not knowing about the moderate and members of the forum.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and to believe what they want to but everyone should not criticize people and organizations without knowledge of them. If you spent some time reading and trying some of the restaurants discussed here you might begin to realize that there is a lot of knowledge here.

I realize you work at one of the top restaurants in town but you need to expand your knowledge of the rest of the local restaurant scene "try it you might like it"

I think it is imporant to note that a forum has no agenda. It is a marketplace of ideas and competing points of view, no different than a meeting hall where people gather to discuss issues in which they share a common interest. People are going to say things with which you don't agree, but is that reason to curse the meeting hall itself? It's the chain restaurant issue all over again. People love to say that this forum is anti-chain, but there are just as many people on this forum who tout and support chains, as there are people who prefer local restaurants. I don't get it.

I, for one, would be sad to see this become a forum with no discourse, no debate, and no competing viewpoints. I'd hate to see it dumbed down to a P.R. vehicle for restaurants with vapid comments like Zagat.

I, for one, would be sad to see this become a forum with no discourse, no debate, and no competing viewpoints. I'd hate to see it dumbed down to a P.R. vehicle for restaurants with vapid comments like Zagat.

the problem with the viewpoints expressed here on the forum is there is a very onesided 'agree with the monarchy or face execution' mentality.

If people don't see it, or (claim to) deny it... it's because their is an inherent choice not to acknowledge it.


Speaking from personal experience and conversation, there is a large population of 'lurkers' who don't post.
A good number of these people don't get into the argument for the sake that they don't care to speak up against what are the popular views (whether or not they are right).
Whether their reasons are to 'i don't want to get into it' and continually have to defend their views against the masses, or in the case of those who work in the business - fearing reprisal from their employers or losing the respect of their peers. In the end these people keep their mouths shut and their hands off the keyboard because in the end they go dry in the throat trying to make their point.


I for one, have made it a little clear that i'm outspoken on my thoughts and ideals (much as Jerry has done in this thread), without compromise to what i see as 'truth'.
Offering honest, objective opinion is what people in this town/forum/restaurant scene seem to hate, despise and loathe.

The problem with being outspoken is you take a bold leap, and personal and/or professional risk.

Without naming individuals, i personally have received everything from emails, PMs, to face to face dialogue thanking me for stepping up and saying something.
Do i do this for personal gratification? F*%& no.
Do i do it to deliberately piss people off? No.

The question you have to ask is are people getting upset at what you've said because it's truth that they're afraid to face or admit, or is it because you've slandered them through libel?

My personal thoughts are for the former, since I've yet receive a lawsuit or death threat.

I will add this (while trying to maintain topic as much as possible):
after my comments on the thread 'James Beard Awards Best Chef Southeast: Who from Louisville?' were made, beyond the reprisal on the forum; i literally had people calling me and showing up at my house asking me if i was crazy.

why?

because apparently i offended some people.

I made no effort to put down any select individuals, in fact - i pointed out who in Louisville who in my opinion were worthy.

But yet the flak ensued.

A good portion or the criticism i received perpetuated around the fact that Robin asked for best chefs in Louisville deemed worthy, and i pointed out a handful that were ineligible do to the criteria set by the JBF.

Do people have the right to get upset that another points out the faults in their own nominees, if they were naive or misinformed to the criteria to receive this such accolade?


Mark R. seems to be upset for similar reasons here:

Jerry, even after reading your Bio I don't know who John T. Edge is nor do I know what the Southern Food Alliance is. It's kind of like you not knowing about the moderate and members of the forum.

because Jerry does know who John T. Edge is, and what the SFA is is, and Mark doesn't, does that mean Mark can be upset at Jerry?

Furthermore, does that mean the forum as a whole can become upset because they don't have the full fact of the matter, or know the bios and specifics regarding every individual, institution or whatever that is mentioned?


It's as if the forums wants to insult people who are educated, well-read, and well versed on the topics offered for discussion; 'cause dammit i know what i like!'

if you like your food prepared charred to a crisp, sauce on the side, and want to wash it down with a Bud Light, does that make it wrong.
Hell no.

Because you don't spend your free time reading food literature, and reading up on food personalities like you're trading baseball cards, does that mean you can be mad that some of us do, and might know more about the topic than you do? No.

Does that mean you can be upset when i tell you i don't give a s@*t about baseball, and i'm not educated on the finer nuances of it? No.


does that mean that those of us who are educated on such topics can't offer a glimpse into what is out there with a more worldly view of things, based on the time spent taken to become educated on such matters?

Education is both a personal thing, and an outward thing.
You get educated to know about things you are passionate about.
You also get educated in hopes of being able to make the most of that, and in this case, hopefully educate those around you.



I think for me to use this forum properly, it's damn near a responsibility (as a restaurant professional) to try and education those reading it.
It's what i do every day in the kitchen.
I don't cook simple food, nor do i make traditional food.
But i do make food that is entirely possible to understand, if you're willing to open your mind, eyes, ears and palate.




allow me to paint a picture:

this Wednesday, we had a chef for a day in the Oakroom.
he was an older gentleman (i'd wager well into his 60's).
when the dessert course went out, he refused to let the server explain the chocolate cake dish i prepared for his wife.
He asked i come out and explain it.
When i explained the entire dish and the wording of 'circa 1941' denoted that the cake was made with beets, and numerous other components were made with beets (literally unaltered and uncooked beet juice - in terms of flavoring)... she looked at me in shock. 'i hate beets'.

this dish, studded with beets... she loved.

Her husband looked proud.
He'd managed to (albeit, sneakily) open his wife's mind to enjoy something she has hated for years.


There is no mention of beets on the menu other than the aforementioned 'circa 1941' (when sugar rations were in effect, and beet sugars were substituted) , and that's kinda the idea.



John T. Edge had this same dish, and was shocked in the same manner.
how could the beets be so sweet and compliment the chocolate so well?




Open your ears, eyes, and mind people.
otherwise it's gonna be a quiet, dark and lonely world.




-----


What this truly boils down to is that John T. Edge's Gourmet blog post did absolutely nothing but favors for Louisville's dining scene.

And you guys sit hear and argue over 'this isn't adequate' or 'why these places'?


it's called a vignette, and whether or not it paints an accurate portrait of the entire Louisville dining scene as a whole is arbitrary.


If an accurate picture needs to be painted.
please, by all means...

write the book.

Have you ever been anywhere that the people didn't have a "popular view"? Isn't that inherent to any group? If the popular view is defined by sheer numbers, then chain restaurants would be very popular on this forum as there are certainly more people in favor of them than against them.

I'm sorry to say that you are firmly in the popular view on this issue as well. The overwhelming response on this forum to John T.'s piece on Louisville was positive. So, are you the monarchy of which you speak?

All it really boils down to is the fact that people don't like it when someone doesn't agree with them. If people are going to be angry and offended everytime someone takes a contrary position to them on an issue, then a discussion forum is not the place to hang out. Some people believe that if I don't like a restaurant that they like, it means that I do not like them. That's unfortunate, but some folks take everything as a personal attack.

Even though I may not agree with everyone on this forum, I am always interested in the opposing point of view. I disagree with Robin on a lot of issues, and I enjoy debating those issues with him. As far back as the ancient Greeks humans have learned through the process of argument, debate and rhetoric. There is no question that I have learned much about food, wine, and yes, even beer, simply by participating in the debate that occurs in the threads on this forum.

Ethan, you missed my point entirely. It appeared that the author of the thread was inferring that John T. Edge and the SFA were the ultimate authorities on food and that the members of this forum and its web master had no knowledge. I simply pointed out that I didn't know who his authorities were yet I wasn't doubting their knowledge like he was the knowledge of this forum.

My intent was to inform him that there was a lot of knowledge and experience within Louisville HotBytes.

[Robin Garr]

the problem with the viewpoints expressed here on the forum is there is a very onesided 'agree with the monarchy or face execution' mentality.

If people don't see it, or (claim to) deny it... it's because their is an inherent choice not to acknowledge it.

I'm not going to even try to take on your entire long post, Ethan, other than to point out that you have always been free to express your opinions here, you have never, ever been censored, and, frankly, I thought your opinion in the Beard House thread was well thought through and helpful. It was useful to me in my communications with the Foundation, and was appreciated. Where is the "face execution" here?

The only reason I'm replying at all is this: Your statement quoted above is demonstrably false and potentially damaging to this forum. While I'm not going to sue you , I do feel a need to stand up and say, "Ethan, that is utter B.S.," in hope that lurkers won't be misled into mistaking your personal opinion on this matter for fact.

This is the only thing I'm going to say about this issue - I won't debate it or defend it, because I've seen where that goes.

I think what this whole "majority opinion" really comes down to isn't so much actual majority, as it is a very vocal minority of what are basically the authority figures here. It may not even be realized on their parts, but a lot of times when these differing views are expressed, the responses all too often take a condescending tone. When you add in the back-slapping and the buddying up to certain other forumites who share views with the authority figures, it does create an atmosphere of having the in-crowd and the out-crowd, if you'll forgive the decidedly schoolyard terminology. And I should try to stress again... they may not even realize it's happening. For that reason alone, I bear no ill-will to any of those involved (I do want to make sure that's understood). But it is happening, and it makes it very hard for some to participate.

You may disagree with that. No, I take that back, I know you disagree with that. It goes without saying, really, and I'm sure there will be some form of rebuttal to the suggestion. That's fine, whatever it is, I'll let it stand without response. I don't want to get drawn in to another big debate, but I did want to make a point on this topic. If someone finds value in it, great. If you find it worthless and completely off-base... well it was only five minutes of my time anyway.

I'll also say I'm not bowing out of this forum completely - but I have dialed back my participation quite a lot. From now on I've resolved to constrain my postings directly to discussion of the food; no peripheral issues. No smoking law debates, no journalism debates, no library tax debates, no discussions on tipping (though honestly that's one I think we universally agree on), no drink service debates, etc etc. At least I'm going to try my hardest to stick to that. I think that, moving forward, that's going to be the best way for me to keep things civil, respectful, and productive.

This forum, like all forums, has it's high points.........and it's low ones.

That said, I love it! If you just understand & accept 2 simple rules around here, I think you'll find yourself not worrying about the petty stuff so much.

1.) Everyone has a right to present their opinion, as long as it's done respectfully. (Robin does a great job of letting people share their views, good or bad)

2.) Robin and/or Ron are right about everything, and you are wrong. Pretty simple.

As long as you understand these two principles, I think you'll be in good shape going forward. This forum is one of my main stops every day, and will continue to be!

[Robin Garr]

This is the only thing I'm going to say about this issue - I won't debate it or defend it.

That's actually a rather outrageous position, Aaron. You make a provocative statement that essentially demeans the forum, let it sit out there (and, I presume, hope it influences people) but won't talk about it further.

I'll just say I assume that anyone who's giving serious consideration to the <i>merits</i> of your opinion will weigh it in the light of your reluctance to stand behind it or discuss it.

the problem with the viewpoints expressed here on the forum is there is a very onesided 'agree with the monarchy or face execution' mentality.

If people don't see it, or (claim to) deny it... it's because their is an inherent choice not to acknowledge it.

I'm not going to even try to take on your entire long post, Ethan, other than to point out that you have always been free to express your opinions here, you have never, ever been censored, and, frankly, I thought your opinion in the Beard House thread was well thought through and helpful. It was useful to me in my communications with the Foundation, and was appreciated. Where is the "face execution" here?

The only reason I'm replying at all is this: Your statement quoted above is demonstrably false and potentially damaging to this forum. While I'm not going to sue you , I do feel a need to stand up and say, "Ethan, that is utter B.S.," in hope that lurkers won't be misled into mistaking your personal opinion on this matter for fact.

i never stated it as fact and i believe i did reiterate the opinion aspect of things time and time again in all my posts.

I think Aaron's sentiments on the issue echo those that i was trying to convey:

I think what this whole "majority opinion" really comes down to isn't so much actual majority, as it is a very vocal minority of what are basically the authority figures here. It may not even be realized on their parts, but a lot of times when these differing views are expressed, the responses all too often take a condescending tone. When you add in the back-slapping and the buddying up to certain other forumites who share views with the authority figures, it does create an atmosphere of having the in-crowd and the out-crowd, if you'll forgive the decidedly schoolyard terminology. And I should try to stress again... they may not even realize it's happening. For that reason alone, I bear no ill-will to any of those involved (I do want to make sure that's understood). But it is happening, and it makes it very hard for some to participate.

You may disagree with that. No, I take that back, I know you disagree with that. It goes without saying, really, and I'm sure there will be some form of rebuttal to the suggestion. That's fine, whatever it is, I'll let it stand without response. I don't want to get drawn in to another big debate, but I did want to make a point on this topic. If someone finds value in it, great. If you find it worthless and completely off-base... well it was only five minutes of my time anyway.

There's a very much fraternal kinda vibe here, and it seems like a bunch of readers/lurkers don't want to come to the yard and play dodgeball.

[Robin Garr]

There's a very much fraternal kinda vibe here

It is indeed a community, but anyone can join.

and it seems like a bunch of readers/lurkers don't want to come to the yard and play dodgeball.

No, sir, it is not. You have an absolute right to speak for yourself, but don't claim to be speaking for a "silent majority" to give weight to your opinion. That's just BS, and I'm calling it.

Alright, Robin, you win. I've spent the last hour or so thinking over whether or not I want to respond. At first I wasn't going to. I still don't want to, but I feel like I need to in light of the way that response was phrased.

First of all, simply because someone declares an opinion without intent to debate it doesn't mean they don't stand behind it. For the desire not to discuss it - I just think we've had enough of the long drawn out pot-shot taking debate around here recently. I honestly felt at the time that letting the opinion stand on it's own would be better than another tit-for-tat. That and I have a busy day ahead of me, and don't wish to get too distracted from other things. I was happy enough to make my case, and leave it for consideration with the acceptance that it will either be understood or dismissed. It wasn't a tactic of any sort. I just wanted it known that there are others who feel not everything is fine here.

On the subject of trying to influence people of anything: I'm not trying to influence anyone in any way except for those directly involved in my observation. My only real intent was to get you, and maybe Ron, to maybe think about things a little. All I'm asking is that you give serious consideration to the way responses are made. That's all. If you do so and find nothing wrong, by all means carry on.

It was not my intention to defame the forum. In fact I'm not addressing the forum in general, just the way discussions are handled on the part of a handful of individuals at times. I've gone out of my way to defend the forum itself in other cases. And I'll do so again if I feel the need arises. The forum is a great place for discussion of the restaurants of Louisville, and the forumites here are very knowledgeable. It has single handedly expanded my knowledge and appreciation of all kinds of food and dining experiences more than any other source. You and Ron especially have contributed to each.

I want to stress this again before I leave off. I bear no ill will to anyone involved here. Not you, not Ron, not anyone else. The forum in general is great. But sometimes it feels like the rest of us are morons.