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TimT

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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by TimT » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:52 am

First visit to the Forum in a few weeks.

Wow. Scorched Earth topic. To quote from Apocalypse Now, "I love the smell of Napalm in the morning". The hatred is quite palpable but enthralling. Read it all in one sitting.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Jeff Cavanaugh » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:52 am

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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Iggy C » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:18 pm

[quote"Steve H"]Wait, you had dinner. With conservatives. Who thought gays should be imprisoned or put to death? DEATH!?!?!?! Give me a break.[\quote]

I don't know why I'm responding to someone who's questioned my patriotism and now my honesty, but yes. It's a common view in large parts of the world.

[quote"Steve H"]In the context of Sanctuary restaurants, there is no "all are welcome" for those from whom sanctuary is required. Otherwise, the definition of 'sanctuary' is meaningless.[/quote]

Well, if it really were meaningless, then it wouldn't trigger you so badly. But I'd leave it to people whom Trump has demonized to determine its meaning and worth. In my opinion this country has a ton of reactionaries in it who could use some exposure to pluralistic values, which is what an "all are welcome" sign does. If the sign causes someone who believe all men are *not* created equal to choose another restaurant, then the sanctuary worked. And if they come in anyway and see -- hey, the Irish aren't so bad, after all! -- then the sanctuary worked. Or if it just gives someone who feels despised and demonized some measure of comfort, then it was a success as well.
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Steve H

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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Steve H » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:52 pm

Iggy C wrote:
Steve H wrote: Wait, you had dinner. With conservatives. Who thought gays should be imprisoned or put to death? DEATH!?!?!?! Give me a break.

I don't know why I'm responding to someone who's questioned my patriotism and now my honesty


I don't know either. Have you considered that maybe you're the one who is triggered?

Iggy C wrote: but yes. It's a common view in large parts of the world.

So, you had dinner with American conservatives who espouse that gays should be imprisoned or put to death? Because you know this is how your statement would be read, right?

Iggy C wrote:
Steve H wrote:In the context of Sanctuary restaurants, there is no "all are welcome" for those from whom sanctuary is required. Otherwise, the definition of 'sanctuary' is meaningless.

Well, if it really were meaningless, then it wouldn't trigger you so badly.

All this way, only for you to sidestep the central point of disagreement by deliberately misunderstanding what I said.

Iggy C wrote: But I'd leave it to people whom Trump has demonized to determine its meaning and worth. In my opinion this country has a ton of reactionaries in it who could use some exposure to pluralistic values,

Do you mean something like managing international engineering teams? An activity that requires international travel and cultural immersion? Do you mean exposure to pluralistic values like those? Or do you mean something like dinner with gay killers?

Iggy C wrote: which is what an "all are welcome" sign does.

And once again, any self proclaimed sanctuary restaurant is not putting out an "all are welcome" sign.

Iggy C wrote: If the sign scares off someone because they believe all men are *not* created equal, then the sanctuary worked.

How can a non existent "all are welcome" sign scare anybody? And this saying that Trump supporters would not wish to go where they aren't welcome because they somehow disagree with the Declaration of Independence is a complete red herring.

Iggy C wrote: And if they come in anyway and see -- hey, the Irish aren't so bad, after all! -- then the sanctuary worked. Or if it just gives someone who feels despised and demonized some measure of comfort, then it was a success as well.

Except that this would be like a British officer going to a IRA pub during the 'troubles'. News flash! A sanctuary restaurant is not neutral ground in the culture wars. A normal restaurant could be that neutral ground though, as they will not have not picked a side. It's no wonder you want to keep erasing that distinction.

And after dinner, did you decide that those gay killers weren't so bad after all? Good to know that Trump supporters are worse than that!
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:38 pm

Jeff Cavanaugh wrote:Image

I love that cartoon. I have it saved and use it often. :mrgreen:
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Iggy C » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:43 pm

Formatting all the replies and sub-replies is a hassle I don’t want to deal with right now, and your snark-to-actual-content ratio is plummeting, so let’s get back to the heart of your argument, which seems to boil down to:

Inclusive signage is really secret code for “Trump voters not welcome.”

The problem with this assertion is that there’s nothing logical or factual to counter. I can’t disprove it any more than I could disprove it if you asserted that every shop owner who puts up an American flag is secretly signaling the Martian invasion. On a human level, I can speak for myself that if I put that sign up in my place of work, I would sincerely mean that everyone, including Trump voters, are welcome; but you have questioned my honesty and patriotism already, so that’s a dead end. And even if restaurant owners hung up a “Trump voters welcome” sign, nothing could stop you from interpreting it negatively, either, if you wanted. So until these signs are actually hanging up in real restaurants and we can talk about real reactions and interactions, there’s not much to discuss. As I said, I am open to revising the “sanctuary” language into something like “all are welcome" if it makes people like you feel like less of a victim. It is not a finished, perfect project.

As for the conservative evangelical family who favored the death penalty for homosexuality who had me over, the question was: “can you knowingly be welcomed by people whose values you mutually oppose,” and that was an answer from my own life that shows that yes, it is possible, and not “illogical,” as you claimed. I don’t know why you’re getting frenzied over it. It is perfectly possible and normal to be welcomed in a place that also challenges your values. Education, travel, making friends – all these serve this function and are a vital part of life experience.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Steve A » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:27 pm

The article from Robin's first link wrote:Most chefs are quick to say that doing good is not a partisan issue—or shouldn’t be. “No matter what our guests’ political beliefs are, they are welcome in our restaurants,” said Le Pigeon co-owners Gabriel Rucker and Andy Fortgang in a statement explaining their choice to donate to local immigrant rights groups. Yet, the statement continues, the climate for immigrants could be more hostile with the incoming administration. “The restaurant business has always been a major employer of immigrants and it is a group we care deeply about. Helping others is not a protest—it’s what we feel is the right thing to do.”

I'm squinting really hard. Don't see anything to get upset about there.

The article from Robin's second link wrote:Sanctuary Restaurants:
– Do not allow any harassment of any individual based on immigrant/refugee status, race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation to occur in their restaurant
– Place a prominent “SANCTUARY RESTAURANTS: A Place At the Table for Everyone” sign in the establishment
– Offer or obtain informational support through ROC United
– Participate in a peer network to exchange ideas and strategies for protecting targeted workers
– Experience increased patronage and support through a outreach partnership between ROC United and Presente.org

Might be just me, but that sounds pretty charitable, doesn't it?

But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of a good ol’ troll or your own alternate reality.

Steve H wrote:I never said I was smug. As I'm not smug.

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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Carla G » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:33 pm

(Heavy sigh, shaking my head)
All a couple of us were trying to do was give an atta boy to a restaurant that was attempting to show kindness.
And then...
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Margie L » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:22 pm

Steve H wrote:Obama spent 8 years doing nothing for these blue collar Americans. Less than nothing. That is why you have Trump.


For that, feel free to blame Mitch McConnell.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Mark R. » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:29 pm

Margie L wrote: For that, feel free to blame Mitch McConnell.

Not Really, the first 2 years he was at office Obama had the opportunity to pass anything he wanted to and didn't. Even later on if he had proposed anything reasonable it would have probably passed. However he proposed very few things in most of the ones he did propose were utterly ridiculous and hurt more people than they helped.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Jerry C » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:41 pm

Been reading this crap for days now...hang in there Steve H. the silent majority will win again.

Burning Bush guy summed it up best.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:10 pm

Jerry C wrote: silent majority

Never has a nation been so divided on the basis of intelligence. :twisted:
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Jerry C » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:09 am

Never has a nation been so divided on the basis of intelligence.


You can say that again!
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Carla G » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:19 am

Or so divided by willful ignorance.
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Re: "Sanctuary Restaurants" - an idea for Louisville?

by Robin Garr » Wed Jan 25, 2017 9:02 am

Jerry C wrote:
Never has a nation been so divided on the basis of intelligence.

You can say that again!

Never has a nation been so divided on the basis of intelligence.

keep-using-that-word.jpg
"You keep using that word ... "
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