How restaurants get cooks to work 12-hour days ...

That is not what I said.

I assume you're responding to my question about no-tipping, good service in Europe, Steve? It sure seemed like a relevant response to me. If no tipping means no rockstars in the US, then how does Europe get its rockstars?

I never said that rockstars are a requirement for good service.

And I wouldn't know if rockstar servers are more or less common in Europe. The article you posted strongly implies that the rockstars under discussion are highly motivated by tips. So, maybe you should take your objections there?

I always thought that Europeans think of food service as a legitimate profession and not just something you do while in school or on your way to something else. Food service positions in the once old grand restaurants (like Maxim's) were handed down from father to son. And they were pretty lucrative in their own right. I guess things have changed since then. (~~shrugging~~) I don't know.

Most servers I encounter are well past 'student' age. You mileage may vary, of course.

I always thought that Europeans think of food service as a legitimate profession and not just something you do while in school or on your way to something else. Food service positions in the once old grand restaurants (like Maxim's) were handed down from father to son. And they were pretty lucrative in their own right. I guess things have changed since then. (~~shrugging~~) I don't know.

Most servers I encounter are well past 'student' age. You mileage may vary, of course.

Oh yeah, I see them as well. I wonder how many out there view food service (waiting tables) as their profession? It used to not be that respected as one. I hope that's changed. Has it? I dont have a clue since my recent circle of friends doesn't include too many in the food service area . My loss too.

[Robin Garr]

I always thought that Europeans think of food service as a legitimate profession and not just something you do while in school or on your way to something else.

I know some servers here who treat their work as a profession, and it shows. I guess they are the rockstars, and I suspect that in the nature of their personality they'd do it about the same for tips or for appropriate salary.

Upon further reflections I think perhaps this thread should be renamed "How customers get cooks to work 12-hour days..."
Given some of the responses, it seems more appropriate. I don't think most restaurant operators want to be either paying their employees loads of overtime or risking litigation from using tactics like shift pay, and asking employees to work many hours off the clock. I would hope, at least, that most business owners want to take care of their staff, those who in turn take care of their customers.

The biggest motivator to make this change, however, comes not from the owners themselves, but from their demanding customers. They want more quality and more quantity, and they also want to pay less and less. How many excellent restaurants get trashed because people believe their portions are too small, and therefore overpriced? When in fact it is really just the fair price of paying for the kind of quality we have come to expect from a fine dining (or even causal these days) establishment.

Take a restaurant like Alinea, for example, a meal you would easily pay $500+ per person (if you want wine, and trust me you do) and in return you will get one of the most amazing 14-20 course meals of your life. You might imagine that this is enough to pay their cooks quite well. In reality, though, an experience like that requires the manpower of dozens of cooks to produce. So then it may be difficult, but also unsurprising, to hear that the 25 line cooks they have working 80 hours a week, are actually making minimum wage.

What can we do to change this? I think we vote with our feet. We support businesses with more generous policies for their cooks (not just better wages, but also benefits and maybe some paid sick/vacation days, things many take for granted), and we boycott those who don't. In this society, money is the only way to change the status quo. And while it may seem selfish of people like me to desire, to ask for things like this to happen, the consequences aren't just for the betterment of those like myself, it is actually better for you too! Happy motivated cooks, make much tastier food than sad beaten down ones.

So when the most expensive restaurant in the country, one most of us couldn't even dream of eating at, can only afford to pay its workers minimum wage...your proposal is that we consumers should be willing to pay more?

So when the most expensive restaurant in the country, one most of us couldn't even dream of eating at, can only afford to pay its workers minimum wage...your proposal is that we consumers should be willing to pay more?

Yes, precisely.
Figuratively speaking, restaurant owners and chefs don't set the price of the food. The customers' perceptions of value determine how much one would charge for an item. While many are drawn to an 8oz filet on a menu, they may find it disconcerting that it will cost them $45. However, most often these high ticket items are the least profitable ones on the menu. Certainly they draw people in to get that amazing steak with the truffle butter or whatever, but the restaurant owner is really hoping that they can make up for that high margin item elsewhere, likely in their beverage department.
When pricing menu items most chefs do a cost breakdown and then price the dish as high as they think they can, while not deterring customers from ordering it, even if that could result in a very slim margin of profit. If chefs could do a strict cost analysis to determine the price of their menu items, there would be an uproar.

It shouldn't be that way. If customers want to eat amazing food, they should be willing to pay for the costs and labor associated with it. As it stands now, this is not the case. Just think of how many restaurants you know of that closed, but were so good and even seemed busy, and you couldn't believe it. Relish comes to mind...

Yeah, I'm kind of shaking my head in agreement with Eric. Not just on dining but on other things as well. Like good shoes or quality clothing lines. Make no mistake, I operate on a real budget but I guess I've just gotten tired of the amount of cr** that is out there. I'd rather have one very good pair of real shoes than a dozen pairs of cheap ones that fall apart. The same goes for computers, cars and whatever. I will deny myself an evening out in a so-so restaurant so that I can save for one of note. Perhaps, as Americans, we have become accustomed to having massive quantities or amounts of whatever we want/need with little regard to quality. We definitely have a "I want it but I don't want to pay for it." attitude sometimes. That and we have become so separated from the industrial side of things we have little idea how much work and cost goes into anything anymore.

[Robin Garr]

Relish comes to mind...

I agree with much of what you say, too, Eric, but I'm not entirely sure about this. Weird location and strip-mall ambience sure as heck didn't help.

I agree with much of what you say, too, Eric, but I'm not entirely sure about this. Weird location and strip-mall ambience sure as heck didn't help.

Anecdotally speaking, the 6 times I went, or tried to go, they were always on a wait. Certainly, though, there are many reasons for their closure, not just food & labor costs or margins. Others I could think of are places like 732 Social, then after them La Coop. Rumplings would probably fit in this category and I'm sure there are many more examples.

There is definitely an exploitative factor of our almost masochistic love of the suffering. We have bragging rights. I have worked for employers that want to cut labor costs in order to afford having more ethical meat standards-and pointing out that they are trading ethics of animal flesh on the backs of ours....can be mind blowing for them, that's how little we can sometimes be regarded inthis industry.

That being said, we are one of the few industries that can take all-comers, the misfits, the dropouts, the strays and give them a legitimate career that is genuinely exciting and different every day that you can leave at the door along with your filthy apron and sidetowels-and no matter how many times I swear it off to "go legit" in a cushier job, the grass always looks greener standing in it on this side.

When customers can start evaluating their value on more than just their imaginary perception of what things should cost (appropo usually of nothing), maybe the entire industry can have a more equitable rate of pay. But the whole food chain is broke as a joke because people think paying more than $2 for a taco is outrageous.

I agree with you Megan. How did we get this way?

I have worked for employers that want to cut labor costs in order to afford having more ethical meat standards-and pointing out that they are trading ethics of animal flesh on the backs of ours....can be mind blowing for them, that's how little we can sometimes be regarded in this industry.

I've worked for several managers who needed to hit a certain labor percentage to make bonus and had no qualms about shaving an hour or two from everyone's time to do it, or swapped a free meal for working a few hours off the clock.

Rumplings fits in that category to an extent, but there were other factors that led to its closure. I've offered to clear the air on Rumplings, but at this point I'm over it.

And to be clear, I don't feel undervalued by my employer. The whole notion that chefs are underpaid is nonsense. I'm a 26 year old chef, I own my car, I own a decent home, I pay my child support, I have enough left over to do what I want, mostly.

Most chefs live a pretty exorbitant life style, as far as expending their income. I've been there.

Now, as a cook in title, yes it's easy to feel underpaid, but not everybody can be on that top rung. I do my part to make sure my guys are paid time and a half For overtime, they all make well above the proposed minimum wage, etc.... But for every investment banker you have multiple clerks. Work hard, have some passion, and you eventually move up. A lucky break never hurts, I received one. Really, I'm not any better than any cook in town.

And I wasn't slamming cubicle life. We are all meant to do different things. Most of my family does some sort of desk job, be it professor, nuclear medicine, graphic design, accounting, etc.

I have worked for employers that want to cut labor costs in order to afford having more ethical meat standards-and pointing out that they are trading ethics of animal flesh on the backs of ours....can be mind blowing for them, that's how little we can sometimes be regarded in this industry.

I've worked for several managers who needed to hit a certain labor percentage to make bonus and had no qualms about shaving an hour or two from everyone's time to do it, or swapped a free meal for working a few hours off the clock.

TOTALLY; we even devalue each other. But to that issue, again, if that manager was just paid what they were worth and it wasn't tied into arbitrary numbers that don't reflect perfomance, this would not happen. When you tie pay into food and labor cost bonuses, quality goes down. Bonus should be based on sales, if anything.