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Brett Davis

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by Brett Davis » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:47 pm

I think it would be interesting to go one further. Have a dinner paired with one beer and one wine with each course to show how both can work with the same cuisines. Now that's something I've never seen done.

Roger, I would be honored to pair up with you on an event like this. I think I have a couple of connections left in Louisville to help pull something like this together.
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David Clancy

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by David Clancy » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:59 pm

Brett Davis wrote:I think it would be interesting to go one further. Have a dinner paired with one beer and one wine with each course to show how both can work with the same cuisines. Now that's something I've never seen done.

Roger, I would be honored to pair up with you on an event like this. I think I have a couple of connections left in Louisville to help pull something like this together.
Damn...I could have been a contender!! (I so miss my place...sorry Rog!)
David Clancy
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(Is this your homework Larry?)
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Charles W.

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by Charles W. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:54 pm

Another reason: The Battle of Hastings.
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Ethan Ray

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by Ethan Ray » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:57 am

In Roger's defense:

Stone Brewery 'Out and About...Beer v. Wine Dinner'


Craft Beer vs. Fine Wine: Stone Brewing Co. & Trinchero Winery Square Off


this meal was paired with food by Chef Gavin Kaysen - of the Rancho Bernardo Inn's equally celebrated restaurant El Bizcocho - who is a 2007 Food and Wine 'Best New Chef', a Bocuse d'Or competitor, and was a competitor on 'the Next Iron Chef'
(note: Chef Kaysen has now taken over the top toque job at Cafe Boulud in NYC)



and the outcome...?



i'm with Roger.
there are plenty of beers that taste similar to the mass marketed Macros, and exposing these options to a naive dining public is no more insulting than having a sommelier come tableside to suggest a wine selection for the guest.



thankfully a few handful of chefs/restaurateurs understand this argument .
Of note - Paul Kahan (chef/owner of the much celebrated restaurants Blackbird and Avec in Chicago), has been in the works of a beer-centric 'gastropub' in Chicago (that as far as i know has yet to open). (Great Beer From Around the World Meets its Food Match

another well placed example of this is the much lauded (and Michelin starred!) Spotted Pig in NYC.


Roger's argument doesn't go entirely unfounded -
perhaps Louisville isn't ready for this sort of 'progressive thought' in finer dining.

For a city that has such a vibrant dining scene and dining culture, it's a farce to think that Louisville is not capable of this; nor that Roger does not make a valid argument.


Sadly, quality beer lists and beer education seem to be lacking across the board in the majority of our cities 'nicer' places.
The only place that comes to mind that breaks this standard is Maido - and the efforts that Jim Huie has made to do just that - educate.


'Afterthought' is the first word that comes to mind on this subject, along with how this city tends to view anything that isn't from an a la carte menu , an appetizer, an entree, or priced under $25.



...I feel Roger's pain in the beer world, and how similar parallels fall in place for the world of dessert in Louisville.
Ethan Ray




'...running my mouth about Louisville food and dining since 2003.'
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http://theironicchef.wordpress.com
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Jeremy J

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by Jeremy J » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:54 am

no one gets my point...I'm not fighting on behalf of bud, but whatever, I've learned what I thought I would. No sense convincing those who want to be inconvinceable.
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Robin Garr

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by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:06 am

Brett Davis wrote:Roger, I would be honored to pair up with you on an event like this. I think I have a couple of connections left in Louisville to help pull something like this together.


It's a great idea, but I see it running up against the shoals of litigiousness ... it's going to be tough to set up a multi-course tasting of beers <i>and</i> wines that won't send people out into the night a little uncomfortably close to DUI limits, unless the organizers go with a sadly limited bill of fare.

I love the concept too, and would also be glad to work with anybody who wants to figure out a way to do it that's both educational and "safe."
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by Michael Sell » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:11 am

For the sake of post-dinner driving, diners could surely take a cab or walk. I've gotten hooked on triples (trying Gulden Draak tonight for the first time and pairing with rabbit daube/bourguignon) and would welcome a meal with nothing but those being paired up by someone that knows more than I do. C'mon Roger, you're right, but you have to advocate by leading on all this. By the way, the term "craft beers" rubs me the wrong way because it makes it easier to marginalize and segregate. People that drink Coors Light don't refer to it as "mainstream corporate beer", so why not call it all just "beer" and expand the term. International references are another story and seemingly necessary, however.

Also, what about a special meal of dishes all actually cooked with some of these, as well. Anyone read Poppy Brite's "Liquor" books?
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by Michael Sell » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:50 am

One more thing about giving people what they want. Going out to a nice restaurant should be a pleasure and a culinary education. The approach of the chef/sommelier knowing best is a timeless, educated, and sadly often non-American one in our "Give me a Quarter Pounder meal, but hold the onions, add a squirt of Big Mac sauce, and extra mustard"/customer's always right country. We don't expect a teenager working the grill at a fast food restaurant to know how best a sandwich should be prepared nor does one get but minor approximation of "food" there; but it's certainly reasonable to expect that an establishment of better quality might also have higher standards across the board.

That said, Happy New Year!
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Brett Davis

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by Brett Davis » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:57 am

Jeremy J wrote:no one gets my point...I'm not fighting on behalf of bud, but whatever, I've learned what I thought I would. No sense convincing those who want to be inconvinceable.


Jeremy, you only made one comment and it was not difficult to understand the point you were trying to make. Just because we felt your point ignored the question, does not mean we are inconvincible.

You say that as long as a nice restaurant carries a nice selection for the beer enthusiast who cares if they carry the mass produced beers. Once again, that is the heart of the question posed, not an answer.

Let's try this one more time. Why is it acceptable for a fine dining restaurant to carry mass produced beer when carrying wine and food products of equivalent quality is not ?

It's a question. It's not a judgment or criticism, just a simple question.
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by Brett Davis » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:08 am

Robin Garr wrote:
Brett Davis wrote:Roger, I would be honored to pair up with you on an event like this. I think I have a couple of connections left in Louisville to help pull something like this together.


It's a great idea, but I see it running up against the shoals of litigiousness ... it's going to be tough to set up a multi-course tasting of beers <i>and</i> wines that won't send people out into the night a little uncomfortably close to DUI limits, unless the organizers go with a sadly limited bill of fare.

I love the concept too, and would also be glad to work with anybody who wants to figure out a way to do it that's both educational and "safe."


I think we could keep it moderate. Five courses each served with 3 ozs of wine and 4 ozs of beer. That would be the equivilant of one Imperial pint and 2 1/2 glasses of wine. We would of course provide spit buckets and feel confident everyone would use them. :wink:
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by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:16 am

Brett Davis wrote:Why is it acceptable for a fine dining restaurant to carry mass produced beer when carrying wine and food products of equivalent quality is not ?


Actually, Brett, I don't think that's the case at all. I can't think of a restaurant in the city that does with wine what Roger does with beer. Everybody throws on at least a Beringer White Zin and a Mondavi Coastal Merlot or whatever, just to make it easy for the people who insist on that kind of wine. Just about everybody lets Brown-Forman pressure them into carrying a lot of Bolla and Fetzer. I admire the places that offer really interesting artisanal and offbeat wines and varieties, and I doubly admire the places that do it at less than the "standard" markup. I'd love to see more places bring Roger's approach to beer to their wine program. "Sorry, sir, we don't carry White Zin. But try this Riesling Kabinett, which we're offering at the same price. I think you'll enjoy it." Yahright.
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by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:29 am

Brett Davis wrote:I think we could keep it moderate. Five courses each served with 3 ozs of wine and 4 ozs of beer. That would be the equivilant of one Imperial pint and 2 1/2 glasses of wine. We would of course provide spit buckets and feel confident everyone would use them. :wink:


Well, there's the problem right there ... maybe I'm just being overly cautious, but if I were a restaurateur, I'd run it by my lawyer before inviting people to a dinner at which they were going to be served a pint of beer <i>and</i> 2 1/2 glasses of wine. Particularly when we consider that Roger's going to bring some high-gravity brewskis. ;)

I'm really not playing devil's advocate here. I think this is a WONDERFUL idea. But serving alcohol in substantial quantities to a group is tricky, and I'd be reluctant to be in a position to have my name on a subpoena after a guest at my party got a DUI or worse on his way home. A program like this needs to address this, and probably should do so with legal advice. I'm just sayin' ...
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by Mark Allgeier » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:43 am

This is a very interesting subject. I haven't read Garrett Olivers book as Roger has quoted but I have met him a couple of times honestly I'm more of a Larry Bell fan. As for Chef Dean C. I have worked in a few busy kitchens(including my own) and to be honest puttin back a cold schwiller after a rush is more compared to drinking a gatorade. I feel bad for him he probably thinks he's really being watched( paparazi style). As for me we keep cold natty light on hand occasionly to replenish.(No reason in letting the staff drink to much of the nectar) However if you want to get down to it. Mass produced beer okay, Guiness,Heineken,Sam Smith etc.(In my opinon these guys don't hold a candle to a fine crafted sour) Now lets get down to whats mass produced in America. Some of you may not like this."There award winning"

Miller Brewing Co. total of 7 medals at The Great American Beer Festival
including Gold for MGD and Gold for Icehouse.

Pabst Blue Ribbon total of 4 medals
including Gold for Lone Star and Gold for Old Mill Light
Old Style took home a silver for American style Cream/Light Lager
(sorry Cubs Fans)

And the list goes on "sigh"

Anyway whats the point? What you choose is up to you however if you want my advice Drink Local thats why for the most part I only carry my own.

As for Pizza its like Beer it goes good with anything

Cheers

P.S. Lexington Brewing Co. 2 silver medals/ky bourbon barrel & ky weissbier
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by Brett Davis » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:46 am

I understand what your saying and agree it must be said.

I would hope keeping it to 3 1/2 drinks worth of wine and beer over a 2 to 2 1/2 hour period and spit buckets provided with a stated encouragement to use puts the legal responsibility on the backs of the consumer where it belongs. If they needed extra incentive, we could put Yellow Cab's and City Scoot's phone numbers on the bottom of every tasting sheet.

"But your honor, they did not physically force me to spit or tackle me for my keys! Surely I cannot be heald responsible for my own actions much less be trusted to make the right decisions. Isn't that their job?" :shock:

UHHGGG!!!
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by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:50 am

Brett Davis wrote:I would hope keeping it to 3 1/2 drinks worth of wine and beer over a 2 to 2 1/2 hour period and spit buckets provided with a stated encouragement to use puts the legal responsibility on the backs of the consumer where it belongs. If they needed extra incentive, we could put Yellow Cab's and City Scoot's phone numbers on the bottom of every tasting sheet.

"But your honor, they did not physically force me to spit or tackle me for my keys! Surely I cannot be heald responsible for my own actions much less be trusted to make the right decisions. Isn't that their job?" :shock:

UHHGGG!!!

I hear ya, Brett, and I agree, although I know we've both seen plenty of evidence that not everybody is smart about using the spit bucket. I remember a mega-tasting in NYC where one little old gent, purportedly a Famous Wine Writer, sat there and happily slurped down the full contents of every glass he was presented. At the end of the event, he quietly got up, then gently slid to the floor beneath his table.

At least NYC has great public transportation. ;)

Bottom line, as I said before, if I were a restaurateur involved in a tasting like this, I'd really want to do it, and I'd really want to run everything by my lawyer first.
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