Welcome to the Louisville Restaurants Forum, a civil place for the intelligent discussion of the local restaurant scene and just about any other topic related to food and drink in and around Louisville.
User avatar
User

Deb Hall

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

4169

Joined

Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:46 pm

Location

Highlands , Louisville

by Deb Hall » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:52 pm

With all due respect, I find the reasoning here somewhat scattershot.

If I'm grasping the argument, you're saying that a dish like Georges Bank cod with fennel artichoke ragout, saffron infused shellfish veloute is well done and elegant, and I've no doubt that's true, but isn't it the case that a majority of people in the metro area would find it pretentious?


Roger,

Maybe this helps: When I was talking about unpretentious-ness (Is that a word?), I was referring to the restaurant and it's atmoshere, not the food. What I meant was that in a gorgeous, very elegant (and expensively created) restaurant, it was a breath of fresh air to see the Chef enjoying the beverage he likes without being worried about anybody else's opinion (including the Food Editor of LEO). If that's what he likes, that's what he should drink. Now, if his staff had suggested Bud with our meal, I might have had a different view..... :wink:

Regarding pretentious restaurants: to me that's all about the mood, service and treatment of the customer. I've been in some fine, big city restaurants where it's so important to impress and put on airs, that it becomes snobby and stuffy (and in some cases very judgemental) , and to me that's not a great dining experience regardless of the caliber of the food. Corbett's doesn't feel like that: they spent the attention to every detail and spent a great deal of money on those details, but it still feels very comfortable and welcoming, not like you have to be up on all the latest food trends to be able to or want to eat there. And I'm betting that most of that feelings coming from Chef Dean and the way he selected and trained his staff.

Does that help?

Deb
User avatar
User

Roger A. Baylor

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1808

Joined

Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:01 pm

Location

New Albany

by Roger A. Baylor » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:08 pm

The clarification is much appreciated. Thank you.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
no avatar
User

Matt B

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

48

Joined

Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:13 pm

Location

Louisville, KY

Just my Two Cents

by Matt B » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:45 pm

Not sure what this adds to the discussion but here is my take:

When I am deciding between two similar restaurants the deciding factor for me is what is on the beer list. This is why I go to Maido and Baxter Station (better than most) more often than any other places in Louisville. When I eat out I almost consider my beer another "course".

While I don't share the emotional connection the the lack of good beer in local restaurants as Roger - it does frustrate me that at many places the best I can get is a "micro" brewed by a "macro"

Roger, I have been wanting to get to your place for almost 3 months. Now that I have a week off I will be making the trip over the bridge this week for sure.
User avatar
User

Brett Davis

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

60

Joined

Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:33 pm

by Brett Davis » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:24 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
Brett Davis wrote:You need t get out more Robin or maybe I do. L&N, Primo, Basa, Lilly's, Maido, 211 Clover, 610 Magnolia...etc.

I do not believe they are guilty of the above.

Brett, I totally agree that all those places named (and many more) have outstanding wine lists.

I do believe, however, that virtually all of them carry at least one or two White Zins and other very low-end, mass-market "industrial" wines - the grape-juice equivalent of Bud, Miller and Coors - at the low end of their lists.
Sorry for the delayed response Robin but I wanted to check with someone else who is in these restaurants almost weekly before coming back to you.

According to my source, all of the restaurants I mentioned are White Zin and RM Coastal (and its equivalent) free. I should also add there are a few more such as Proof, Jeff Ruby's, Le Relais, and Seviche that were mentioned in the conversation. My contact did say he/she could be mistaken with a couple but felt pretty confident all these establishments have become plonk free zones.
User avatar
User

Roger A. Baylor

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

1808

Joined

Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:01 pm

Location

New Albany

by Roger A. Baylor » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:27 pm

Matt: We're closed Sundays. Asked for me any other day, and if I'm around, we'll chat.

Brett: Plonk free zone? That's brilliant.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
User avatar
User

Brett Davis

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

60

Joined

Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:33 pm

by Brett Davis » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:45 pm

Roger A. Baylor wrote:Matt: We're closed Sundays. Asked for me any other day, and if I'm around, we'll chat.

Brett: Plonk free zone? That's brilliant.


Hmmm, where did I get the inspiration for that?

We should talk about the tasting idea. I want to make sure it isn't a smackdown. The idea is to show that good beer can compliment food the same way good wine does, not that one is more suited than the other.
User avatar
User

Jeremy Markle

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

245

Joined

Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:58 pm

Location

In my car

by Jeremy Markle » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:08 pm

This is a very interesting discussion involving ideas I think about often, seeing how they affect my livelyhood (I'm a beer salesman for Lexington Brewing Co.)

I started out working for Duvel in New York and visited many beer savvy restaurants and bars on the east coast and in Belgium for my job. Hanging out with Belgians really impacted my attitude towards beer and cuisine, and to say that good beer isn't associated with fine cuisine certainly doesn't hold true everywhere.

Beer dinners are very popular these days in other cities. I hope it won't be long before they are commonplace in Louisville.


Mark Allgeier wrote:


P.S. Lexington Brewing Co. 2 silver medals/ky bourbon barrel & ky weissbier You Go Lexington!!


Thanks for the nod, Mark. And thanks for pouring the wheat beer as a guest draft. Cumberland rocks.
Check out the new http://www.kentuckyale.com
no avatar
User

David DuBou

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

42

Joined

Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:23 pm

by David DuBou » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:18 pm

I know this is going back to something that is not in line with the original subject but i would like to post a commentary to Robin's assertion that Louisville's upscale independent restaurants are still incorporating things like White Zinfandel and Mondavi Coastal into their wine programs and that no one is making an effort to lead patrons to alternatives.

Robin went as far as sayng "that virtually all of them (restaurants listed by Brett Davis) carry at least one or two White Zins and also said to the idea of Louisville restaurants leading a patron to a Riesling in place of White Zin "Yahright"

I don't post many comments on Hot Bytes but this is a unfortunate declaration on Robin's part because it is not true and Robin, of all people, should know this being that he is supposed to, as a critic, have his finger on the pulse of Louisville's independent restaurants.

these restaurants have worked hard over the last few years to raise the bar in their wine programs and none of them list a White Zinfandel and all of them have gone to offering something in its place such as residual sugar rieslings & demi-sec Vouvrays.

in regards to the comment about things like Mondavi Coastal, that is also not true but it is true that almost every local independent shows some support for Brown-Forman wines. This support is not necessarily due to pressure but due to offered and given support by Brown-Forman. No one supports Louisville's independent restaurants like Brown-Forman and some loved establishments would not still be with us if this support was not available. As someone who works closely with most of Louisville's upscale independent restaurants i have always recommended that they give Brown-Forman what they are looking for which is one red and one white glass. Granted, these wines are not boutique, artisan or low production which is in line with Robin's commentary but many restaurateurs are in need of support like this and it is unfair to shame them for following this support model.

Is there still work to be done? Absolutely!! But to claim that these restaurants are still pouring White Zin (or two! as Robin claimed) and things like Coastal in lieu of embracing the difficult work towards selling and recommending unique, artisan, boutique wines from small producers and interesting origins is simply not true. Some of these restaurants are constantly pushing the envelope with their programs and working hard for Louisville's palate to evolve. As a whole, Louisville's wine scene is better than it has ever been.

Which leads me to a question i have to ask:
as a writer and critic of these establishments one would assume that Robin would be more aware of these facts than many, so how does someone who supposedly has their finger on the pulse of the Louisville restaurant scene make a declaration of this type?
User avatar
User

Robin Garr

{ RANK }

Forum host

Posts

22979

Joined

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Location

Crescent Hill

by Robin Garr » Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:28 pm

David DuBou wrote:Which leads me to a question i have to ask:
as a writer and critic of these establishments one would assume that Robin would be more aware of these facts than many, so how does someone who supposedly has their finger on the pulse of the Louisville restaurant scene make a declaration of this type?


David, you should join us here more often!

I'll keep this short, and I hope respectful: I believe your comment above is only half correct. I did say (and I believe, although without consulting deeply buried notes, I shouldn't name names) that a high percentage of Louisville's high-end restaurants still maintain a few low-end, "industrial" wines on the list, and yes, I likened this to high-end restaurants offering industrial light beer as something I wish they wouldn't do.

However, I don't believe I said that these places in general aren't interested in wine education or in encouraging people to try more adventurous wines.

We'll leave the Brown-Forman discussion for another day. I agree that B-F is an important corporate citizen of Louisville and contributes a lot. I'm also aware of many, many instances in which restaurateurs have felt strongly pressured to put their wines on the list.

Let me restate it, though: I'd be surprised (but pleased) to discover that a significant percentage of the city's top-tier restaurants has NO White Zin and NO low-end, mass-market wine on the list. But please don't extend that to read between the lines that I'm dissing their wine programs in general. I'm not.
no avatar
User

David DuBou

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

42

Joined

Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:23 pm

by David DuBou » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:25 am

Robin,

thank you for your response. I appreciate your comments and i think you will be pleased to see that most of Louisville's up-scale independents are showing wine lists that are absent of White Zin and Coastal. And...when you come across one that is still incorporating such Plonk into their program i encourage you to "call them out!" There is no room for such Plonk in a serious wine program.

but i did want to point out to you, with all due respect, that you did write:

"I'd love to see more places bring Roger's approach to beer to their wine program."Sorry, sir, we don't carry White Zin. But try this Riesling Kabinett, which we're offering at the same price. I think you'll enjoy it." Yahright."

which could lead one to believe that you are implying that there are very few who do try educate the local wine drinker and encourage them to expand their horizons. the "Yaright" could easily be perceived as "very unlikely to happen"

also...keep in mind....Roger almost always has Sierra Nevada Pale Ale available at Richo's which is the most mainstream Pale Ale available and can be found at almost any gas station locally. If one was being an elitist one could say that is placating the public and not encouraging them to broaden. But that would not be true but more of an example of having something that is familiar (and a decent Pale Ale) within a program that offers a wide range of beers that may be completely unknown to someone who walks through the door.
no avatar
User

John R.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

426

Joined

Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:29 am

Location

Old Lousiville

by John R. » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:29 am

Sure they can, they offer bad wine in most places why not bad beer? Have to appeal to everyone I guess? Fine dining involves flavoring compliments and a lot of American fine dining facilities have yet to take the plunge into figuring out what great beers go with what they prepare. The mega brewers would be an obvious choice for a chef that has little knowledge of "beer pairings" with their creations because the mass markets by majority have no flavor or just arent serving beer because it still has a blue collar stigma. As great craft beer becomes more popular, more and more chefs are starting to research and integrate. They are taking baby steps though. A lot of chefs are well below the bar when it comes to beer, which is downright criminal. How can anyone who calls themselves a chef, pass up new flavors to experience? I'm kidding of course but I have noticed that it seems to be the big time successful places that have craft beer. That leads me to believe that they can take the hit if the beers fail to entice. So from that the big cities are in full swing showing off what they can do with the local brewers selections, where the newer initiates are using the more well known flavorful brews like Duvel or Chimay. Which is a good start. Just have to give them time to do the market research.
Im not a food"ie", I am a food"er".
User avatar
User

Shawn Vest

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

966

Joined

Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:10 pm

Location

850 main street, charlestown, indiana

by Shawn Vest » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:27 pm

WELL NOW
i step away from the computer and find an all out beer conversation in the works

as a humble protege of senior Baylor
let me say this

great food and mediocre/bad beer do not pair well together

can anyone give me an example of a beer from the BIG 2 (bud, miller, coors) complimenting/improving the flavor of a fine dish???

as the former beer buyer for Whole Foods let me tell you my experience
When i first got the position i battled for the ability to REMOVE bud, coors, & miller from my shelves

i promised an increase in beer sales and an increase in profit margin if i was allowed to remove these beers

my reasoning is very simple
if you specialize in fine food, fine coffees, fine beverages...etc, why not specialize in great beer

bud, coors, and miller simply don't fit in the Whole Foods picture
it is like carrying cheese whiz next to stilton

i was allowed to have my way with the beer selection and sales did increase as well as profit margin
'why? because i was happy to educate our customers about the value of good beer

i completely agree with Roger on this one
Great beers are not recognized and respected by the fine dining community - most likely because many people are completely ignorant of the possibilities that beer offers

their ignorance is no fault of their own though
roger and myself were not born drinking from a belgian glass

but we both have had the opportunity to learn about fine beer from great educators

why can't fine dining include fine beer drinking?

i also agree that the offering of mass market commercial beers in a 5 star, (or otherwise high rated restaurant) should be calculated into their rating

how can an establishment rated so high offer such poor quality beer

and how does offering this beer improve the overall quality of their meal

it is very much like offering ketchup as a sauce for the steak

shawn

as a side note
Roger doesn't claim to have a great wine list
or to serve 5 star food
but, his offering of beers
more than compliments his menu

which is more than i can say for most beer offerings
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
User avatar
User

Charles W.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

970

Joined

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:53 pm

Location

Schnitzelburg

by Charles W. » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:47 pm

Can a great restaurant serve mass-market soft drinks?

"Diet Coke with your elk loin, ma'am? Good choice."
User avatar
User

Scott Hack

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

299

Joined

Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:09 pm

Location

Pewee Valley, Kentucky

Who distributes

by Scott Hack » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:40 pm

Who distributes most of the craft beers in the metro Louisville area? I only get deliveries from AB, and RC right now.

I don't drink much beer. Actually I normally only drink it if nothing else is available. I'm typically a spirits drinker, but I'll do wine or hard cider before I'll crack open a beer. That said, I try to stock what my customer's ask for. I haven't really been given much direction from them. I sometimes go to the grocery store and see what six packs have the lowest stock and find out if I can get that beer in. I just recently did that with Goose Island's Honkers Ale.
Scott Hack
Finish Line Realty
502-376-4225
User avatar
User

Kurt R.

{ RANK }

Foodie

Posts

509

Joined

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:08 am

Location

Louisville, KY

by Kurt R. » Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:45 pm

Unfortunately, all is subjective rather than objective. White Zin is a soft drink in my opinion, but many people who claim to drink wine like it. Does it compliment a dish, I don't think so, but that is my opinion. The same goes for beer although I like a mass produced Blue Moon (without fruit), it doesn't raise a restaurant's rating to carry it. As another wrote, do we reduce the star rating because they serve soft drinks? I am surprised that some have not chimed in on coffee, although the Consumer's Choice people would have you believe they have the greatest cup of coffee in the world others may differ. I don't care for coffee mass produced or otherwise, but I believe that Maxwell House would say the same about their coffee.
The argument could go on forever and ever European blend versus Butter in a sauce. Commercially grown spring mix versus local farmer grown, etc..
It all boils down to our own subjective opinions. Now do I believe that Dean should serve White Zin, personally no, but if it is selling who am I to say?
As for beer, should they serve Budlight? Same response, if it is selling why not.
I have used the wine argument myself when commenting on a post about a welldone steak being returned three times. Should a restaurant be given a lower rating for serving a welldone steak? I guess that is also a matter of opinion.
Kurt


Character is measured by a series of split second decisions.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign