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Shawn Vest

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by Shawn Vest » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:51 am

"
The reason I think this would be the best option is there are some flaws with your challenge.

First flaw - cheese and wine IMO are not great partners unless you are talking about fortified and/or sweet wines. Do dry table wines and cheese work together? Yes. Do they make each other rise above their lone state? Not really.

Second flaw - bias. No matter who you choose to "judge" this tasting, they will likely have a personal preference between wine or beer and thus their personal bias will influence the results. There’s no way to avoid it.

So why don't we drop the smackdown and simply show that beer has its place in fine dining and what better way to do so than to put it right next to wine."


Brett
i'll work your message from bottom to top if thats ok

the cheese wine pairing is obviously flawed, but only apparent to those that have some knowledge about beer and cheese

wine and cheese tastings are prevalent throughout the dining scene, yet it makes very little sense to pair the two together

beer's superior position in this kind of tasting is very biased, but quite unknown to the majority of wine lovers (in my humble opinion)

the "smackdown" attitude comes from beers being continually dumped on and relegated to the level of soda and water - unjust and unfounded

the bias flaw between judges/tasters happens everywhere, can it be avoided???

now
to the meaningful portion

L&N is the absolute exception to the rule
they have had beer dinners there before
they offer a great selection of wine and beer
and great food

but
is it affordable for all foodies to attend a five course dinner with wine and beer pairings, or more appropriately do we all have the time, or can we be coordinated to give more than say 40 people the opportunity?

if you would like to change the general consensus concerning beer, we should start at the most accessible areas


gotta get to work
thanks again
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
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Steve Shade

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by Steve Shade » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:05 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:"
The reason I think this would be the best option is there are some flaws with your challenge.

(portion of long backquote deleted.)


I'm wore out from reading all this. Think I'll hit the refrigerator for a good, cold Bud Lite.
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Roger A. Baylor

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by Roger A. Baylor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:25 pm

"Lite" is trademarked by whichever multinational that currently owns Miller.

It's Bud "Light."

BTW, there's a great anecdote from a decade or so ago, when A-B took some of its Budweiser into the Czech Republic for a tasting to try and convince the locals that it's as good as Budvar.

Thumbs generally were down, but one man spoke up and said he thought it was a good product.

For shampooing his dog.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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Brett Davis

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by Brett Davis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:52 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:"
is it affordable for all foodies to attend a five course dinner with wine and beer pairings, or more appropriately do we all have the time, or can we be coordinated to give more than say 40 people the opportunity?

if you would like to change the general consensus concerning beer, we should start at the most accessible areas

thanks again

I hear you brother but changing the consensus of beer in the most accessible venus is what Roger and yourself do every day for well over 40 people. This thread is about beer in a fine dining establisment is it not?

I'll make you a deal. Roger and I will go forward with our dinner. I will do my best to keep the wine cost at a minimum and perhaps we can do the same with the beer. That way we can hopefully keep the dinner as reasonable as possible.

Afterwards, I am more than happy to make myself available to do a more simpilified tasting pitting beer and wine together across the river at either NABC or your place. As long as it is in good sport, it will be fun to participate in a smackdown and represent the nectare of gods against the craft beverage of the people. :wink:

Send me an email and we can set it up. Before you or anyone else gets too excited, these events cannot take place before the end of February as six to eight weeks is the minimum time needed to properly plan and promote well attended functions.

That being said, can we end this verbose "my beverage of choice is better than your beverage of choice" and continue it live at these two events?
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Leah A

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by Leah A » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:26 pm

Good point about wine and cheese. This month's issue of Decanter has an article addressing this issue. The classic pairing of stilton and port was actually beat out by sancere and stilton. The only red table wine worth mentioning was a Cote-Rotie.

My first awakening regarding wine and food pairing was with stilton and port but I revisited it again a couple of years ago and was underwhelmed. Was it because I was drinking a different port or have done more tastings since my first experience? Who knows.

I think the more important point is that there is a distinction between a wine which "goes well " with food versus truly elevating the experience above more than the sum of either alone. When people say a wine goes well with food oftentimes it is because it doesn't clash or compete with the food. Othertimes it just completely overpowers the food so that any resulting off flavors are immediately eliminated. And sometimes the pairing can be truly divine.

I think the reason people associate wine with cheese so much is because it is a great palate cleanser and is commonly used when tasting and comparing multiple wines. I was told at some point that it replaces proteins on your tongue which alcohol strips away.
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by Steve Shade » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:43 pm

Roger A. Baylor wrote:
Thumbs generally were down, but one man spoke up and said he thought it was a good product.

For shampooing his dog.


My dog's owner is to lazy to shampoo him, so I guess I will just have to keep drinking Bud LIGHT.
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Roger A. Baylor

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by Roger A. Baylor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:57 pm

Brett Davis wrote:Before you or anyone else gets too excited, these events cannot take place before the end of February as six to eight weeks is the minimum time needed to properly plan and promote well attended functions.


Gravity Head is February 29 ... I'd suggest March if we can work around ball games and St. Paddy's. Beginning in April, I'll have a lot on my plate.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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Roger A. Baylor

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by Roger A. Baylor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:58 pm

Steve Shade wrote:My dog's owner is to lazy to shampoo him, so I guess I will just have to keep drinking Bud LIGHT.


You can lead a foodie to quality ... but ...
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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Shawn Vest

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by Shawn Vest » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:24 pm

i tried to shampoo my dog with bud light
he ran away, haven't seen him since
****
i believe that Leah has a great point in mentioning what "goes well" with a dish, compared to what "elevates" both the beverage and dish

i truly disagree with cheese being a great palate cleanser though
the milky, rich, protein filled residue left coating the mouth after having cheese is difficult to cut through with wine
****
Brett's beer/wine dinner is a fantastic adventure, even though we have to wait quite a while for it to happen (another, problem resolved by a cheese tasting - ease of execution)
hopefully the key players will mark it on their calendars and remind us when the time comes

i'd be happy to volunteer my services at almost any event where beer is given the opportunity to showcase its culinary arsenal (i really have fallen for that term)

and if you're very interested in beer and cheese, you should stop by The Keg in clarksville for one of their beer tastings, Todd always has a nice array of cheeses which compliment his beers
and it may be the only beer/cheese pairing offered in the area

another simple pairing
try an Anchor Porter (or Fuller's) with
Cahill's porter cheese (yes, a cheese made with the very same beer)

and might i say, that this thread has been one of the best threads in this forum
and i hope the lurking audience has found it both entertaining and educational

please stop by and try a beer sometime at our place, but be forewarned - i don't keep great cheeses on hand (other than simple provolone and mozz, that we use for our pizzas)

but i'll glady pair a few beers with items from our simple menu

A pizza with pineapple, ham, bacon, and banana peppers (using BBQ sauce) is elevated by a Bell's Two Hearted

or if you stop by the NABC
have the Spinach Kase with a Hoptimus
or a calzone (spinach, garlic, artichoke, onion, mushroom, and green pepper) with a Community Dark

oh, just in case you may be wondering - i sell domestic swill at my place, mainly because of the particular market that we're in
but i hope to one day achieve the same goal that Roger has - eliminating the need for those beers in my establishment
** in the five months since we obtained our beer/wine permit, i am happy to say that our local liquor store (there is only 1 in Charlestown) has started to carry about a half dozen craft beers that we offer on our beer list (which they did not carry before)
and that domestic vs. craft sales are close to 1.5 to 1 (where i expected a 4 to 1 ratio)

even in the small market of Charlestown it is possible to change the minds of the people, if you give them the opportunity

Louisville has a distinct and important beer culture
with five microbreweries (brownings, cumberland, nabc, bbc downtown, bbc shelbyville) and a recent history of at least 2 more (silo & tuckers)

additionally, the availability of beer styles in this area dwarfs many other areas across the country as evident by Roger's mighty collection on this side of the river and Sergio's collection on the other side (i'm pretty sure its Sergio's world of beers??)

we have a unique opportunity in louisville to place beer in the upper echelon of the dining experience

feel free to PM me if you have any beer related questions

thanks again
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
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Jeff Gillenwater

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by Jeff Gillenwater » Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:06 pm

Shawn Vest wrote: even in the small market of Charlestown it is possible to change the minds of the people, if you give them the opportunity


I've run into a couple of people who specifically give your place credit for helping expose them to fine beers. The pies are getting good reviews as well. Kudos for taking the chance.
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Shawn Vest

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by Shawn Vest » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:55 pm

thanks
Jeff
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
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Richard Rush

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by Richard Rush » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:43 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:
and might i say, that this thread has been one of the best threads in this forum
and i hope the lurking audience has found it both entertaining and educational

please stop by and try a beer sometime at our place, but be forewarned - i don't keep great cheeses on hand (other than simple provolone and mozz, that we use for our pizzas)

I concur with your assessment of this thread. I have enjoyed reading it each day. I have not made it up to your place yet, but will soon.
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Todd Antz

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by Todd Antz » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:14 pm

I have also enjoyed this thread. From the food perspective, I do not have a horse in the race, other than to comment that I have been known to seek out a place with a good beer list. I've turned down many a place that only has regular domestic beers on their list, but I have never turned down a place that had the great beer with the regular run of the mill beer as well.

As a retailer of beer, wine, and liquor, it would be a tough proposition to only sell the high end products. As much as I would like to, I know I would not stay in business if I removed Budweiser from my stock, or Beringer White Zin from my cooler, or even Kentucky Tavern from my bourbon selection. Personally, they are products that I do not care for, but there is a large market for these products. For a restaurant to remove say a white zin from their wine list because we snobs (note the word we, I include myself in this category) would not touch it with a ten foot pole, there are plenty of people who would not enjoy their dinner without being able to purchase a wine they are familiar with. For the past 3 years that I have been running my business, I have held a monthly wine tasting, and a monthly beer tasting to try and open the eyes and palates of more customers, who normally would only purchase Beringer or Coors Light. I have failed at this more than I have succeeded, but it always brings a feeling of pride when someone will come back in and ask me for that wine they had a few months ago at one of my tastings, or the person who has a 6 pack of Bud in his hand, stops by one of my beer tastings, puts back the Bud, and gets something else. Even if they only purchase it that one night, I know they have learned that there is more than the King of Beers.

So, long story short, I don't knock a restaurant for having lower tier wines and beers on their list, as long as they have a nice selection the good stuff on there as well for me. I know that I will not be the one buying a Schmitt Sohne Riesling to go with my dinner, but I am not going to get up and leave if it is on the list, just give me my choices of beer or wine and I am a happy campler.
Keg Liquors
Keeping Kentuckiana Beer'd since 1976
http://www.kegliquors.com

617 E. Lewis & Clark Pkwy
Clarksville, IN 47129
812-283-3988

4304 Charlestown Road
New Albany, IN 47150
812-948-0444
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Ben S.

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Bad Beer not only sin

by Ben S. » Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:24 pm

I read about half of this thread and then jumped to bottom to join in, because it seems to me the inclusion of bad beer on otherwise fine dining is not at all isolated, it is just that bad wine is not the company bad beer keeps.

What about the horrible taste of diet cola?
What about the horrible taste of cigarettes?

Since nicotine is more addictive than even caffeine and alcohol, the diet cola question has more in common with the bud light question.

So why would otherwise rational people take a four or five star meal and debase it with some nasty mass-produced concoction? Behold the power of advertising. When I decided I was too fat to continue drinking coke, it never occurred to me to do what most people do, ie 'make the switch to diet', but why is that decision rare? Why do others force themselves to acquire the taste for diet drinks? Presumably its the massive advertising campaigns that make the decision to request an overhyped product an unconscious decision, implicit instructions from the TV being followed without conscious input into the wisdom of the decision. 'Its what I am supposed to order'
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Shawn Vest

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by Shawn Vest » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:37 pm

by those same line Ben, fine dining establishments should carry great box wine because the ads are good
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
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