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Scott Hack

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by Scott Hack » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:41 pm

Not to muddle the thread... but Frostop Rootbeer is some of the best I've had. I've threatened to get it for my shop, but I don't have room to serve another keg... One day maybe!
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Roger A. Baylor

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by Roger A. Baylor » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:44 pm

Jay M. wrote:Here's more evidence of what I interpret to be your belief that further training will be required for fine dining establishments to consider higher quality beer lists: This week's Louisville Business First includes a brief interview with Jim Gerhardt of Limestone Restaurant. In response to the interviewer's question "What are some other skills needed to successfully own and operate a restaurant?", Chef Gerhardt responds:

"You have to have a good working knowledge of wines and how they pair with food, as well as liquors."


Excellent submission -- and timely. Now I have a pertinent question for Chef Gerhardt.

Why wine and liquor, but not beer?
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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by Roger A. Baylor » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:46 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:for the fine soda lovers
stop by Roger's and have a draft root beer from Sprecher, best i've ever had, it reminds me of a long ago era of draft A&W


I'll echo Shawn on this one. I didn't even like root beer until the Sprecher came along. They also do a mean cream soda; we hope to have that one on draft soon, too.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
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Leah S

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by Leah S » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:30 am

I hesitate to even wade into this, but here's a link to an article from yesterday's courier-journal.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbc ... 8801020912
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Ron Johnson

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by Ron Johnson » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:39 am

Shawn Vest wrote:hey Ron

unless your dining on grapes or sauces made from grapes
it is pretty difficult to echo the flavors from your meal with your wine


I completely respect your appreciation and knowledge of beer. But, this statement is inaccurate. About the only thing wine doesn't pair well with is very spicy food, and then is the time I will go for a beer. It is actually very easy to beautifully pair wine with food. Wine is a natural counterpart for food. One of the key aspects of wine that make it pair well with food is the acidity.
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Kurt R.

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by Kurt R. » Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:41 am

Roger poses an excellent questions, why no education on beer? I don't believe Jim or Mike participate in this forum. Jim's email is limestonerest at bellsouth.net
Roger I would suggest you ask Jim, why no education on beer. It means more coming from a independent restaurant owner and one of the most knowledgable beer enthusiasts I know.
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Robin Garr

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by Robin Garr » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:11 am

Kurt R. wrote: Jim's email is


Because some spammers Google for the at sign to harvest working Email addresses to spam (and sell), it's best not to put people's Email on the forum in clickable form without asking them. Hoping you wouldn't mind, I made a subtle change in Jim's address to keep it visible to human eyes but not clickable. :)
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Kurt R.

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by Kurt R. » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:16 am

No problem, I only gave it out, because it is posted on the website.
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Robin Garr

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by Robin Garr » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:54 am

Kurt R. wrote:No problem, I only gave it out, because it is posted on the website.

That would make a difference! It's already a spam target then, I'm sure. Still, it's a good policy to avoid putting clickable Email addresses in public forums. No criticism intended, Kurt, as I'm sure you know!
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Jeremy Markle

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by Jeremy Markle » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:10 am

Ron Johnson wrote:
Shawn Vest wrote:hey Ron

unless your dining on grapes or sauces made from grapes
it is pretty difficult to echo the flavors from your meal with your wine


I completely respect your appreciation and knowledge of beer. But, this statement is inaccurate. About the only thing wine doesn't pair well with is very spicy food, and then is the time I will go for a beer. It is actually very easy to beautifully pair wine with food. Wine is a natural counterpart for food. One of the key aspects of wine that make it pair well with food is the acidity.


I love wine and think it pairs with many foods beyond ones incorporating grapes, but I think its acidity is a slight limitation when it comes to food pairing. Lots of foods don't need any extra acidity because it's already a component of the dish. But if you like, you can also get good acidity from world class beers (Liefmans Goudenband, Rodenbach Grand Cru, Cuvee de Tomme, etc).

But the point isn't wine vs food. It's about expanding and challenging our tastes. The simple fact is that most Americans aren't familiar with the cornucopia of flavors in beer's culinary arsenal. They are more familiar and comfortable with highly carbonated soda-pop beers. If top-tier restaurants set out to challenge palates with food and wine, why not beers too? BTW, I saw the beer list out at Corbett's and it's pretty decent.
Check out the new http://www.kentuckyale.com
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Roger A. Baylor

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by Roger A. Baylor » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:16 am

Kurt R. wrote:Roger poses an excellent questions, why no education on beer? I don't believe Jim or Mike participate in this forum. Jim's email is limestonerest at bellsouth.net
Roger I would suggest you ask Jim, why no education on beer. It means more coming from a independent restaurant owner and one of the most knowledgable beer enthusiasts I know.


Indeed I will.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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by Roger A. Baylor » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:47 am

Ron Johnson wrote:
Shawn Vest wrote:high quality restaurants should serve high quality products


Can you give me some examples of what would be high quality beers that should be served at a high quality restaurant?


I've thought about this a lot at various times, and the answer tends to change based on recent experiences.

The fundamental thing is to offer a variety of styles, not just a variety of labels/brands. Knowing the difference between styles and labels is the first jumping off point for me.

So ... in no particular order of preference …

Lagers (bottom fermented; clean character)

A true Pilsner with hop character, i.e., Pilsner Urquell; fewer micros attempt this, but if we could get Victory's Prima Pils ...

Dark lager with balls, like Ayinger Altbairisch Dunkel. Amber and malty Oktoberfests fit here, too, but probably should be seasonal.

Doppelbock: Rich, sweet, malty, meant for meat. You haven’t lived until you’ve enjoyed Bavarian-style pork knuckle with Doppelbock.

Ales (top fermented; far wider potential flavor spectrum)

Belgian-style Wit (white/wheat), and Blue Moon does not count. Hoegaarden remains serviceable. Citrusy; hint of sourness.

German style wheat: Schneider or Weihenstphaner, although I suppose Franziskaner is acceptable even if the character is too mild for me. Cloves, apples and bananas.

Belgian Trappist (Chimay red or blue, et al) ... dark, bottle conditioned, vinous, complex malt.

Assorted Belgians and French Bieres de Garde. Among the former, sour reds (Rodenbach), eclectic Wallonians (La Chouffe, McChouffe) and wondrous Saisons (Dupont the finsets example); the French beers are criminally underrated and simply wonderful with many dishes. Ask Chef Clancy if you don’t believe me. American examples of both Belgian and French styles include Ommegang Hennepin, Jolly Pumpkin’s line and Two Brothers Domaine Dupage (sic).

Imperial Stout. Thick, black, intense, oily, viscous. Many good microbrewed versions. Functions much like Port with assertive cheeses, and modifies sweet desserts.

American-style hop bombs, double IPA, etc. Bitterness for contrast, and can also be quaffed sans food.

Local microbrews. To me, preferably on draft, and maybe rotating. Louisville is blessed with excellent small breweries (and there’s Alltech, and many more in Indiana, as Shawn noted).

---

Think in terms of style and the possibilities are endless. I didn’t mention everyday dry stout of the Guinness mold, which remains beautiful with shellfish, and I’m assuming that there always will be a few yellow Eurolagers around for the plain fearful; as I wrote previously, you simply don’t need Budweiser if you have Stella or Spaten.

The point remains that a very good 15-20 beer list can be constructed from what is available locally, and it will cover most of the contingencies. Seasonals can make up the difference.

Earlier someone brought up Maido as an example of a great beer list, and I agree 100%. Using conventional wisdom, you’re washing down diverse sushi and voluminous wasabi with weak golden lager, but chase them with Stone’s hoppy Ruination Ale and it’s a religious experience, indeed.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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by Shawn Vest » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:23 pm

Ron Johnson wrote:
Shawn Vest wrote:hey Ron

unless your dining on grapes or sauces made from grapes
it is pretty difficult to echo the flavors from your meal with your wine


I completely respect your appreciation and knowledge of beer. But, this statement is inaccurate. About the only thing wine doesn't pair well with is very spicy food, and then is the time I will go for a beer. It is actually very easy to beautifully pair wine with food. Wine is a natural counterpart for food. One of the key aspects of wine that make it pair well with food is the acidity.


while i respect your knowledge of wine and food
i find it hard to believe that Wine's acidity is the key reason it pairs well with food
why, is wine a natural counterpart for food??

i provided several examples as to why beer is a "natural" counterpart to food

what about wine makes it better

any style food pairs great with the appropriate style of beer
beer lacks the limitations in food pairing that wine does (spicy dishes)

again
i will say that
beer is better
you just haven't met the right beer yet

Leah, thanks for the link
these stories have been in the news for the past several years
reiterating the fact that craft beer sales are on the rise, while commercial beer, wine, and liquor have slowed or decreased


thanks jeremy
"culinary arsenal", great

thanks to roger for providing a great list of beer styles that should be carried at fine dining establishments

beer simply offers a greater range of flavors and styles than wine
beer has also been a more significant part of the "culture" than wines in many regions (germany, england, egypt, america) and thus greatly influenced the culinary culture (more of an influence than wines in many cases - oh the exceptions - southern france, italy, spain, & portugal are certainly more influenced by wine than beer)
but that leaves a huge culinary kingdom that is not heavily influenced by wine

trends in fine dining have been primarily influenced by French cooking styles in the past, but many fine dining establishments are offering a greater range of dining experiences today incorporating culinary styles from all over the world
why not compliment those styles with beers
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
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by Will Crawford » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:30 pm

Roger A. Baylor wrote:
Will Crawford wrote:Should fine restaurants stop serving Makers Mark because it is owned by a huge conglomerate Fortune brands which by the way also owns Absolute?


Actually, virtually anything is possible with knowledge and passion -- even offending a conglomerate.


Then you can not serve any of the high end bourbons from Jim Beam, no Wild Turkey products. Buffalo trace is gone Woodford reserve is gone. these are all owned by mega corps. Oh well we can drink water with our meal. Wait that is owned by a big corp. too.
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by Shawn Vest » Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:39 pm

Will Crawford wrote:
Roger A. Baylor wrote:
Will Crawford wrote:Should fine restaurants stop serving Makers Mark because it is owned by a huge conglomerate Fortune brands which by the way also owns Absolute?


Actually, virtually anything is possible with knowledge and passion -- even offending a conglomerate.


Then you can not serve any of the high end bourbons from Jim Beam, no Wild Turkey products. Buffalo trace is gone Woodford reserve is gone. these are all owned by mega corps. Oh well we can drink water with our meal. Wait that is owned by a big corp. too.


perhaps
someone should start a small hand crafted bourbon/liquor company ?
all big corps are not bad, but why ignore the little independent local producers?
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
www.ctownpizzaco.com
850 MAIN 812-256-2699
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