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christopher stockton

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by christopher stockton » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:13 pm

Chris M wrote:Thank you Shawn.

I was completely with Roger's post until he said Stella.

I'm sorry but... I'm not a fan of Stella. Not at all.

I'd rather have a Bud... even if they were the same price. Which they rarely are.

I'm not clear why Stella is OK if Bud is not. What "new frontier" is Stella opening? What taste buds is it challenging? It's Budweiser for people who are too snobby to drink Budweiser. Besides, you're then going against the whole "be local, buy local" thing we love on this board. Why import Belgian Budweiser when you can drink American Budweiser and support American jobs for American families? Right?


I swear the Stella here is nothing like the Stella back home and definately not like the Stella in Belguim. Anyone agree? or know why?

I could kill a beer right now.
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Heineken

by christopher stockton » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:15 pm

It's the same with Heineken... nothing like Amsterdam
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Robin Garr

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by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:20 pm

Roger A. Baylor wrote:it has been enough to inspire a LEO column (forthcoming).

Dang, I was going to commission you to do a longer one for Food & Dining!
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by Roger A. Baylor » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:22 pm

You can still do that, Robin. The LEO limit is 300 words, and that isn't enough to give it the full measure of attention.
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by Robin Garr » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Roger A. Baylor wrote:You can still do that, Robin. The LEO limit is 300 words, and that isn't enough to give it the full measure of attention.

Let's take it to Email or a bull session over a couple beers at NABC. I love this idea, and I'm thinking about some kind of wacky deal where we take our individual F&D columns (maybe involve Jerry, too?) and play point counterpoint counter-counterpoint in related articles on the same topic from the points of view of beer, wine and liquor? Just a thought ...
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My two cents

by Brand M » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:03 pm

I dropped in to Corbett's yesterday Jan. 3rd to check the place out and check if any bar jobs were available. Carrie has done a marvelous job of hand picking the small beer list. I'm positive any beer snob would find something to pair with their course. From just peeking in the cooler.I saw Belgian Gouden Caralous,Bell's two hearted Ale, Old Liberty,and Rogue Java stout.There were more but I can't recall off the top of my head.


The beer previously mention are EXTREMELY rare to find in such an establishment as Corbetts.Personally, I haven't seen the likes anywhere near here for the food and fair they offer.

Could they carry more ? Hell yes, I think it's a great start ,though.
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by Ron Johnson » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:33 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
Shawn Vest wrote:i do believe beer is better, should i be censored for that (or because i'm not a HUGE fan of wine)
i have yet to hear any reasons why wine is given its superior status at the table

Shawn, please, you're reading way too much between my lines that I never wrote there.

I agree in general with what you said. This forum has always been open to good, robust yet friendly and civil debate, and I rarely if ever feel a need to practice censorship. You are in NO danger of the censor's axe in this thread, and you're defending yourself against an attack that was never delivered.

I did step into this thread with a general admonition to the group, and that is this: Both in this thread and the smoking thread, some frayed tempers have started to show. There's been some angry shouting and some surprisingly virulent cussing and some personal insults. Not a lot of it, no, but those are things I don't want to see here, and those are things that will drive some people away. I don't want to have that, and that *specific* kind of behavior, repeated after warnings, may prompt me to do things I don't like, including locking threads or deleting posts. But I hate to do that, and I don't plan to. I hope everyone will agree to these simple policies as a matter of consensus and we can move on.

And again, that's not directed at you, personally, Shawn. It's a notice to the group.

Now - as a wine AND beer geek who practices both persuasions on a personal level and who's been writing about this stuff for publication for 25 years or more, I do indeed have some opinions. Frankly, I've stayed out of this thread simply because it has been so contentious, and, it seems to me, has had too many people arguing rather than listening.

I'll be glad to express my opinion about wine and beer and how they both go with food, but I'd rather wait until everyone's tempers have cooled and we can talk about it in a civil and rational way.


I, for one, have been patiently waiting for your input on this. Not in order to fan Shawn's inferno, but because I don't think there is anyone else on the site who has the knowledge and experience of both wine AND beer, and is unabashedly a fan of both. I recall several restaurant reviews you've done where you opted to pair beer with your meal instead of wine.
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by Ron Johnson » Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:35 pm

Shawn Vest wrote:i have yet to hear any reasons why wine is given its superior status at the table


because no one has taken this position. that's why. you're having an argument with yourself.
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by Shawn Vest » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:28 pm

ron
you are right, no one has directly stated that wine is better than beer, but that is the general consensus in the fine dining world
and is exemplified by the fact that the wine list of a fine dining establishment affects a restaurant's overall rating (and that a fine dining establishment doesn't think twice about offering low quality beer like bud, but considers offering low quality wine a travesty)
while the beer list does not affect a restaurants overall rating

Robin is the exception to the rule, a qualified and well respected food critic that has great knowledge of both beer and wine - but not every critic/foodie has that knowledge

what i'm arguing for here is a better position for beer in the world of fine dining
and what i have been asking, is why a large number of "foodies" on this forum relegate beer to a lower position on the culinary totem pole and tout wine as the natural counterpart to fine dining

wine geeks dominate the world of fine dining and us beer nerds are left to our pizza and pub grub
why?
is the public completely unaware of beer's undoubted standing as a founding factor of agricultural societies

are we ignorant of entire cities in ancient Egypt dedicated to the production and distribution of beer

do we simply ignore the influence of beer in colonial expansion and thus the culinary expansion of our palettes to the great cuisine of Asia, India, and the Americas (without India Pale Ale the British may never have developed successful trade routes throughout India and Asia)

how is it that dedicated lovers of food would allow such an admirable creation to be relegated to the status of soft drinks in the fine dining world

this is no sugary, fuzzy beverage created less than 200 years ago with soda water and artificial flavors

this is the elixir of life, the fermented liquid that drove us to the fields and enabled us to settle down from our hunting and gathering lifestyles
whether it be fermented maize in the Americas, fermented rice is Asia, or fermented barley in Europe and Africa - these are the beers of our ancestors
these are the beverages that helped us develop the fine art of cooking

how could we allow such an elixir to be represented by the mass marketed tastes great, less filling, watery, light label
how as ancestors of great beer making cultures did we arrive at little green frogs telling us who is the king of beer

in a world where beer is commonly known as a light yellow, ill flavored, soda pop of a beverage, who can blame you for treating beer exactly as it is portrayed

*****
as a final challenge to the wine lovers and sommeliers of the world

i offer the perfect challenge to test the qualities of both beverages
easily and without the services of a well trained chef

the cheese pairing (yes, another traditionally wine favored food experience)

choose any five cheeses to pair with your five favorite wines
and i'll choose five beers that better compliment those cheeses

please choose cheeses and wines that are available in the Louisville area
and i'll choose beers that also available in the area

a public version of this contest would be great (Prost at the NABC could probably be convinced to play host)
with five or six tasters chosen by an impartial person
i'm thinking chefs and food critics - not wine or beer folks

this is not a new concept, i'm pretty sure G. Oliver mentions something similar in his book

or it could be done online, which leads to less reliable results and much more heated debate, i would imagine


one of the best beer cheese pairings

Ayinger Celebrator Dopplebock
with
Gruyere

the nuttiness and slight dryness of the cheese are accentuated by the nutty maltiness of the beer, the slight hop finish is just bitter enough wash away the remnants of the cheese and leaves your mouth fresh and ready for another bite


thanks for allowing me the opportunity to argue with myself
-
if you drink less good beer, that leaves more for me
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh, I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go nearly as well with pizza. D Barry
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by Michael Sell » Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:34 pm

Actually, I have been learning a great deal from this thread and hope it continues. My brief experience on HotBytes is that anytime an interesting civilly-expressed discussion begins, eventually someone (Michelle this time) chimes in that the forums are supposed to be fun and not opinionated, etc. Hearing knowledgeable opinionated people (agreeing or disagreeing) sounding-off is "fun", as I see it. Heavens, the thread title and 10+ pages is an obvious tip-off. Also, this is a culinary-focused forum and should involve hearty and occasionally heated discussions.

One other point: The word "snob" has no place here. By caring at all about quality food, wine, beer, etc, we're all considered snobs by quite a large percentage of Louisvillians, and it certainly doesn't behoove these discussions to be reductionist and be minutiae-obsessed. Roger makes a good point and one, as a restaurant goer, I have to admit to never having thought about. He's hardly a snob simply for the sake of advocacy.
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by Brett Davis » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:38 am

Shawn Vest wrote:wine geeks dominate the world of fine dining and us beer nerds are left to our pizza and pub grub
why?

is the public completely unaware of beer's undoubted standing as a founding factor of agricultural societies

as a final challenge to the wine lovers and sommeliers of the world

i offer the perfect challenge to test the qualities of both beverages
easily and without the services of a well trained chef

the cheese pairing (yes, another traditionally wine favored food experience)

choose any five cheeses to pair with your five favorite wines
and i'll choose five beers that better compliment those cheeses

please choose cheeses and wines that are available in the Louisville area
and i'll choose beers that also available in the area

a public version of this contest would be great (Prost at the NABC could probably be convinced to play host)
with five or six tasters chosen by an impartial person
i'm thinking chefs and food critics - not wine or beer folks

Ok, you are obviously not going to let this go. That's cool, with your extreme (and overstated might I add) passion for beer, why should you?

I made an offer earlier in this thread to work with Roger on a pairing dinner featuring both beer and wine. Not to show one is better than the other but to help show that beer is a worthy choice to go with more elegant cuisines.

Len Stephens has offered up L&N Wine Bar as a venue for Roger and I to do this if Roger is interested. I see it as an event with five diverse courses of food paired with five different beers and wines. No competition, no battles, just good natured education.

I want to point out how generous an offer it is from Len. First off he is a wine bar owner offering to host a dinner that promotes beer. Second, he is a very knowledgeable Sommelier himself that is turning over the wine selections to a rank amateur like me. It is a very gracious offer to say the least. I hope he doesn’t faint when I pull out the Pinotage and Ugni Blanc.

The reason I think this would be the best option is there are some flaws with your challenge.

First flaw - cheese and wine IMO are not great partners unless you are talking about fortified and/or sweet wines. Do dry table wines and cheese work together? Yes. Do they make each other rise above their lone state? Not really.

Second flaw - bias. No matter who you choose to "judge" this tasting, they will likely have a personal preference between wine or beer and thus their personal bias will influence the results. There’s no way to avoid it.

So why don't we drop the smackdown and simply show that beer has its place in fine dining and what better way to do so than to put it right next to wine.
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by Roger A. Baylor » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:29 am

I was young and tenacious once. Now I just try to pick my spots and drink around the rest.

Speaking of picking spots, Brett, Len's offer is exactly the ticket for the proposed evening, and his venue one of the finest. Let's get together and discuss. I'll send you an e-mail from my regular account, and we'll get the ball rolling.
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Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
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by Greg R. » Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 am

Ok. I am going to wade in on this at my own peril. I have no horse in this race so here goes...

While my taste in beer has come a long way from drinking "the beast" upside down out of a keg..I still really enjoy some ice cold mass market swill from time time. I keep the fridge well stocked with great beers from BBC and others, but sometimes I just reach for a nice cold light beer. Why? Because it tastes good, it's refreshing and it's cheap. There, I said it...The emperor has no clothes! I'm not the only one. I had a party not too long ago with a great selection of beers. I had to make a beer run to get more "swill". My guests were people, like a chef mentioned earlier in this thread, that "ought to know better" and certainly know that it is cool and green and better and anti-establishment and all that bollocks to drink the micros. The problem is that they like the swill much better. Therefore, I think it would be a huge mistake to of not offer this beer on a menu anywhere if you are in business to make money (save those places that specifically target the micro consumer).

On the other hand, my experience with wine has been much different. The more I learn about wine the more I enjoy the "good stuff". I would never buy a bottle of Kindall Jackson, because it does not taste as good as many much less expensive bottles.

This not an education issue. I know more about beer than wine and probably slightly prefer beer to wine (love the idea of beer pairing). I just think people have a genuine affection for "swill" even after they have been "educated". Based on my observations the same does not hold true for wine.
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by Ron Johnson » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:23 am

Dude, I don't even know if I could physically perform a keg stand anymore.
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by Michelle R. » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:26 am

Michael Sell wrote:Actually, I have been learning a great deal from this thread and hope it continues. My brief experience on HotBytes is that anytime an interesting civilly-expressed discussion begins, eventually someone (Michelle this time) chimes in that the forums are supposed to be fun and not opinionated, etc. Hearing knowledgeable opinionated people (agreeing or disagreeing) sounding-off is "fun", as I see it. Heavens, the thread title and 10+ pages is an obvious tip-off. Also, this is a culinary-focused forum and should involve hearty and occasionally heated discussions.

One other point: The word "snob" has no place here. By caring at all about quality food, wine, beer, etc, we're all considered snobs by quite a large percentage of Louisvillians, and it certainly doesn't behoove these discussions to be reductionist and be minutiae-obsessed. Roger makes a good point and one, as a restaurant goer, I have to admit to never having thought about. He's hardly a snob simply for the sake of advocacy.


Never once did I state that the forums should not be opinionated. I spoke up because this thread was starting to get downright nasty, and apparently, several other people agreed with me.

Secondly, I used the word "snob" in quotes, in comparison to the high school kids who rule the roost. Beer and wine lovers rule the roost here. It was a joke, not meant to be taken as seriously as apparently, somebody took it.
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