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DanB

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by DanB » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:37 pm

I don't think the issue is whether or not the minimum wage shifts five or ten percent in one direction or the other. The minimum wage, regardless of what we do with it, won't make or break our economy. I probably would have agreed 100% with Mr Varanese's comments 15 or 20 years ago. But things have changed. In the last 15 years we shipped 25% of our manufacturing base overseas with the full participation of our two corrupt political parties. Our manufacturing "sector" is actually chugging along just fine since we retained all the white collar, finance, admin, and R&D functions here.

But the guys and gals on the factory floor, we yanked the rug out from under a quarter of them and the rest have had to settle for paltry wage increases since then. We have competitors with less corrupt politicians who have had much better success keeping at least some of those factory jobs at home. Now we're stuck with a too big service sector... and not to belittle anyone who works in service, but manufacturing jobs are always more important to one's economy. Manufacturing jobs simply have a higher multiplication factor and support X number of service jobs.

If we look at the minimum wage amongst our competitors, some do it, some don't. Good examples are, say Switzerland and Norway with very high minimum wages. A small, ten inch thin crust pizza with an ounce or two of toppings cost you $38 in Zurich. Same thing costs $8 in Germany. Likewise in Norway a damned beer at the pub cost you $15. Same thing in the Netherlands costs you $5. Germany has no minimum wage. There's people here who work for $5 an hour in restaurants. NL has a sliding scale minimum wage and those under 18 also can work for as little as $5 an hour. All of these countries have pretty good economies.... even though they are complete opposites when it comes to minimum wage.

We simply need less of a service sector and we need to claw back at least ten percent of our lost manufacturing base. If we raise the minimum wage, it's really just a short term band-aid with no lasting effects. No one wants to see a small business owner fail. But honestly, we've got enough restaurants... probably too many. Long term it would be better if entrepreneurs ditched the pizza biz for example and put their talents to work in small business manufacturing. That's just what we need more of The only way to achieve any of this is probably to ditch our two parties or reform them. I know "throw the rascals out" is so trite. But at the rate they're going they'll turn us into Mexico very, very, soon.
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Doug Davis

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Doug Davis » Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:43 am

Jay M. wrote:
Doug Davis wrote: I misspoke above. That should have read adjusted based on US productivity rate increases (ie revenue) not inflation.
In which case minimum wage would be $18.30 today and about $19.00 by 2016 (which under the current proposed plan would have us at $10.10 an hour).

If we pegged it to per capita real personal income, the personal income earned in the economy, excluding Social Security and other government programs, adjusted for inflation has grown by 100.6% since 1968. If our standard for minimum wages had kept pace with overall income growth in the American economy, it would now be $21.72 per hour.

If we're tying it to unrelated metrics, how about using Moore's law? That would mean minimum wage would double approximately every two years. So, in unadjusted for inflation terms, and using the period 2004 to 2014, the current minimum wage would be $ 164.80 ($ 342,784 annually). That sounds good to me. Get the Mayor on the phone.



Im sorry, how exactly is "per capita real personal income" anymore of an unrelated metric than inflation is?
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DanB

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by DanB » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:14 am

Doug Davis wrote:I misspoke above. That should have read adjusted based on US productivity rate increases (ie revenue) not inflation.
In which case minimum wage would be $18.30 today and about $19.00 by 2016 (which under the current proposed plan would have us at $10.10 an hour).


I'm going to guess that productivity gains have been much less for minimum wage type jobs, esp in the hospitality industry vs other sectors and hence, this would not be the most apt metric.

Source: I pulled that out of my backside.

On edit to clarify: I don't think 1x productivity gains should accrue to minimum wage workers. Obviously you have to pay the vendors who create/invent things that make those gains possible. But I can definitely see that some portion of those gains could be used to make an argument for bumping up the minimum wage.
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Steve H

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Steve H » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:52 pm

I lost track.

Is Chef Varanese a member of the oppressive oligarchy or not? I've got some serious dining to do.
:lol:
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Robin Garr

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Robin Garr » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:08 pm

Steve H wrote:I lost track.

Is Chef Varanese a member of the oppressive oligarchy or not? I've got some serious dining to do.
:lol:

Most questions aren't binary. This one isn't.

"Who has drunk the Kool-Aid?" might be, though.
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Steve H

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Steve H » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:11 pm

It's not? To dine or not to dine sounds binary to me.
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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Robin Garr » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:12 pm

Steve H wrote:It's not? To dine or not to dine sounds binary to me.

Steve, you apparently read my reply with the same level of attention that you bring to politics. :lol:
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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Steve H » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:19 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
Steve H wrote:It's not? To dine or not to dine sounds binary to me.

Steve, you apparently read my reply with the same level of attention that you bring to politics. :lol:


Ironic coming from the guy bleating constantly about Randian this, and Randian that, and Koch Brothers. I wager that I read more leftist writers than you do right wing ones.

Still. What's the official HotBytes position? Seems awfully quiet in this thread for there being so much righteousness earlier. After Chef Varanese's response, there's no way for me to tell where we're at.

Is Varanese on the socially acceptable list? Or the stick it to the man list?
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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Robin Garr » Mon Dec 22, 2014 5:48 pm

Steve H wrote:Is Varanese on the socially acceptable list? Or the stick it to the man list?

We don't keep lists like that. It's still on the Good Places To Dine list, though. :mrgreen:
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Susanne Smith

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Re: John Varanese explains the minimum wage to us

by Susanne Smith » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:27 pm

I will be the first to accept Chef Varanese's explanation of his comments being taken out of context. I wish (if they haven't already) that WFPL would do the same, and print a retraction, or at least explain how they were taken out of context. But as it stands, I acted hastily and hope that without the concern and radical intervention of the hotbytes fourmites, Mr. Varanese would have acted just as quickly to remedy this misunderstanding.
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