Is a loud, noisy environ the new norm?

OK, this a simple question to a trend that I am seeing more and more in dining out in Louisville. For example Rye, Cena, and now Roux.

Isn't part of the pleasure of dining out having a civil conversation without yelling across the table? Just asking! Or as restaurateurs more interested in a modern look than dining aesthetics? Don't we have a balance we can draw so we all can be happy?

Now, where did I put my ear plugs?

[Robin Garr]

It often feels like the "new norm" to me, Bill. 732 Social, now La Coop, is excruciatingly noisy, an effect that the restaurant folks used to pass off to the building owner's push for LEED certification above all else. Harvest is very loud. The new LouVino is EXTREMELY loud, as my recent review discussed. Silver Dollar is so loud that a friend and I resorted to texting across the table there, although they get sort of a pass because of their focus on Bakersfield sound on old black disks. El Camino, under the same owners, is loud. Decca can get very loud; so can Rye, as you mentioned.

I think part of it, as you mentioned, has to do with design: Hard surfaces, sharp edges, no tablecloths, no luxurious carpets, no curtains to mute the echoes. I think to some extent loud is seen as trendy and hip. If a place is quiet, it's for your grandparents.

I also think the ascendancy of loud gives some people an excuse to leave their indoor voices at home, and adult beverages only amplify this effect.

Robin,

I echo (forgive the pun) comment about LouVino....love the place and the concept, and have basically relegated it to Sunday Brunch, and sitting away from the Jazz Ensemble and it is very much do-able. And now that you mention Harvest, 732/La Coop, and Decca, it just seems that there is more and more "noise" at dinner.

Now, one of my all time favs, Varanese, is guilty, to a point, of the problem too...and wine dinners there can get very interesting...you know when we've hit the third course, and the conversations get rather robust to say the least.

Cloth helps, but doesn't totally fix the issue...unfortunately, I'm fearing that this generation of up-&-comings hasn't been taught the value of a quiet meal in an intimate setting. It seems that faster and louder is what the scene is in for.

This is not to say that I will not dine out....you can't live a proper life in Louisville and totally be a homebody, however (and last night at Roux was a prime example) I don't want any distractions or noise on the drive home, that's for sure.

LouVino's no longer on our list to try some time because of the reputation for noise pollution. This is amazing to us because De La Torres was always a place we could go and be assured of a relatively quite, intimate and relaxed dinner environment.
It boggles the mind that anyone who cares about providing a quality food experience would encourage racket. I wonder if the trend was sparked at lesser restaurants to distract patrons from the mediocre food or by their accountants to turn tables more quickly.

I think that Robin probably hit the nail on the head. The design of new restaurants removes various architectural and decorative features that use to help deaden the sound. Since the place is louder already people use louder voices to be heard which causes more problems resulting in a never ending circle. Combining these two items with the fact that as a rule people these days have become much more obnoxious and rude when out in public places we are seeing a rapid deterioration of quiet dining places!

Of course unfortunately we are all getting older and more sensitive to these items!

My reaction to it depends on the concept of the restaurant.

Some place like Holy Grale? That I basically categorize as a bar with really good food? I expect it to be tight and noisy.
A sit down restaurant such as Decca or Roux? I wouldnt expect it nor would I put up with it.

It was one of the reasons we wouldn't go to 732 Social when we first moved to town. When I complained of the crowding and noise, every one here in Louisville would excuse it by saying "but this is authentic New York style restaurant dining!" As if that made it acceptable. Of course I had just moved here from Manhattan and nothing could have been further from the truth. No one would have tolerated the crowding or noise of 732 Social in NY. It was ridiculous.

I fantasize about going to a quiet restaurant with friends and being able to talk with everyone at the table.

I would love it if a current local restaurateur, with enough space, could test this idea by creating a quiet room and see what the response is. It would not have any TVs or loud music. All customers would be able to respond to the person at the other end of the table! Great conversations might ensue.

I am not a fan of this trend either. Apparently, it's intentional in many cases.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/nyreg ... d=all&_r=0

Some research has shown that people drink more when music is loud; one study found that people chewed faster when tempos were sped up. Armed with this knowledge, some bars, retailers and restaurants are finely tuning sound systems, according to audio engineers and restaurant consultants.

“Think about places where they’re trying to get you in and out as quickly as possible,” said John Mayberry, an acoustical engineer in San Marino, Calif., who has railed against what he terms the “weaponization” of audio. “It’s real obvious what their intentions are.”

Would love to speak up about this... no pun intended

As owner of LouVino, which has already received a reputation of being extremely loud, here is my take... which echos (again, non pun intended) what others have already said.

1) Design - the focus on our design, as well as many others these days, is industrial. Wood, metal, hard surfaces. None of which absorb sound. Carpet? No way in a restaurant... you would go out of business cleaning it. Curtains? No thanks... would remind me of my grandmother's house What's "in" for design doesn't help for better acoustics... just the way it is.

2) Sound absorption - we recently had sound engineers in to give us a bid to make our space a little more quiet. Their bid came back at $11,000 and when asked if/how much it would help they essentially said "maybe" and "we won't know until we do it".... SO, there isn't a magic equation to come up with exactly what to do, how much to do, etc... like many may think (so many people have commented to us and said "just put some acoustic panels up" -- easier said that done!!) It's all a guessing game and unfortunately, it's an expensive one. I will also add that this quote was to put fabric panels over almost every inch of wall/ceiling. So, instead of a neat, clean look... it would look like we are an art gallery of fabric panels...

Furthermore, in the highlands we are dealing with building that are built like tanks which again adds to the acoustical nightmare.

3) Drinking - the more people drink, the louder people get. Can't do much about that.

4) Popular places - All of the restaurants that were mentioned in this post are extremely popular, packed places on most nights (ours included). Sorry, but packed places are going to be loud... probably no matter what you do. Restaurants are a low margin business and we have to do what we can to maximize those Fridays and Saturday nights to stay in business in order to keep Louisville a great foodie town. Even "fine dining" places like Jack Fry's are loud on busy nights.

5) Some people actually like it - we have had people of all ages say that they love our atmosphere.

6) We want it loud? I can guarantee you that we aren't going for this... we want a nice mixture of a lively atmosphere with good conversations. Some might want that... but it leads to negative comments about your restaurant which doesn't bode well for business.

Just my 2 cents, from someone who is currently dealing with the issue with no great solution, even by the experts.

[Robin Garr]

Just my 2 cents, from someone who is currently dealing with the issue with no great solution, even by the experts.

That was 2 cents well spent, Chad. Thanks for the voice of real experience, and thanks for taking the time to tell us about it.

I will also add that this quote was to put fabric panels over almost every inch of wall/ceiling. So, instead of a neat, clean look... it would look like we are an art gallery of fabric panels...

I wonder if you could get some local artists to paint and or dye these fabric panels? That might be interesting.

I'm not an acoustics expert, but it seems that there should be places to hide some anechoic panels up in the rafters where they could actually add to the edgy industrial motif. They would actually absorb most of the sound that encounters them, much more effective than flat carpet panels, so fewer would be needed, and they could be placed in areas where sound is naturally focused, like corners. A few could make a significant improvement.

I've performed RF emissions and acoustic testing in various anechoic chambers before and they are pretty creepy. You really don't need a 100% coverage of deadening panels to make it significantly quieter.

Untapped resources in town might be any of our many bands/musicians who have set up recording studios. It couldn't cost that much to get some foam and do some experiments yourself. The cost anechoic panels seems fairly moderate. Pretty easy to do some DIY experimenting.

The topic of using panels to deaden sound came up a couple of weeks ago because somebody was looking for a source of the panels. Madeline Peters from Coal's brought up the fact that they had to sum quite successfully, which I can concur with and had spent a huge amount of money on them. Any place that's a restaurant, not a bar, it's just not that comfortable to eat dinner at when it's too noisy!

Two days ago, I had dinner at St. Elmo Steakhouse in Indianapolis. The food was really good, but it was very loud. I had trouble hearing my wife right across the table. This restaurant was apparently around during Prohibition times.

I had another meal at Jack Frys' on the Sunday after Derby. Again, great food, but it was so loud, one of the people I was having dinner with brought out a decibel measuring app and it was off the charts. Hasn't Jack Fry's also been around since Prohibition era?

Maybe people are just louder and more obnoxious today? Or maybe I'm getting old and my hearing is going. STAY OFF MY LAWN.

When we built the second floor party room at Coals the echo was unbearable. The day after the workman placed the panels on the ceiling the feel of the whole room was different. Not only could you detect the muffled effects with your ears, you could feel a change, which is a little difficult to explain. I think echo/ noise can create a cold environment, which is fine, it all depends on the type of atmosphere you are going for. My preference is a cross between the two. I don't want it to feel like a funeral home but I don't want customers shouting across the table. The second restaurant will have these panels. Mark has to find the invoice but he swears he paid less than 10 bucks a panel. As soon as we find the company we will let you know.

I am sure that providing a restaurant where people can actually speak to one another is challenging, as the comments from restaurant owners underscore; however, I do not buy the idea that popular restaurants are necessarily noisy. Recently we celebrated an anniversary at Cena and when everyone in our party complained about noise, the manager said he was sorry but he could do nothing because the sound system was connected to the one used by Burgers and Mussels (no anticipation that finer dining might involve lower decimals?). Good meal but we won't be back b/c we value conversation as much as good food. Furthermore, there are places where the food is good to excellent and communication involves more than smiling and texting. We'll be, instead, at Mayan Cafe, 211 Clover Lane, Ward 426, Coal's Pizza, etc.