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Steve Kluesner

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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Steve Kluesner » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:07 am

I am trying to stay out of this but I have to jump in here.......

too is not the same as to

sense is not the same as since
Last edited by Steve Kluesner on Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Jeff Cavanaugh » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:16 am

Steve Kluesner wrote:I am trying to stay out of this but I have to jump in here.......

too is not the same as to

sense is not the same a since


"a" is not the same as "as."
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Steve Kluesner » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:22 am

Jeff Cavanaugh wrote:
Steve Kluesner wrote:I am trying to stay out of this but I have to jump in here.......

too is not the same as to

sense is not the same a since


"a" is not the same as "as."


Glad you caught that.....lol
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Doug Davis

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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Doug Davis » Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:07 pm

Adriel Gray wrote:Fine... Here is your point by point retort. I hope it is everything you wanted it to be... How I slaved for you:


Nope its was mostly a long winded personal attack and screed against me, without any real effort put into stating your opinion and then supporting it with referenced published material.

Given you supposedly have a philosophy degree I expected better internet trolling than that. Work harder.
I will give you 4 out of 10 due to length though.
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Rick Boman

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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Rick Boman » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:44 pm

Here is the problem with economics. It takes mathematical and statistical facts and spins them with politics to either side of the spectrum. I for one hope the labor market grows to the point where minimum wage is a non-issue. I can guess with a particular certainty what side of the political spectrum that each of the contributors on this thread are on.
This is my unscientific view:

Economics= Mathematics (Statistics) + Politics
Since Mathematics (Statistics) are fact and Politics is always varying, I give these Nobel Laureates on either side absolutely no credence.

Here is what the minimum wage debate means to me. If a $2.85 per hour raise is given to everyone, whether it is on a minimum wage job or not, then I say go for it. I, for one, have worked hard to create a marked difference between my salary and minimum wage. With one swipe of the pen, almost $3 per hour of that gap would be gone, meaning a lot of my hard work is being punished. If the raise would apply to everyone, which it won't, It just means that all money will be worth less. That $1 loaf of bread will be $1.50 after all the ducks fall in a row. So really, what have the minimum wage workers gained. The money will be worth the same regardless because a state instituted raise will be not based on any wealth creation.

I think that anyone who works a full-time job, should be able to support themselves with the basic needs of life. With social welfare programs, they already can. Of course, full-time employment should be a pre-requisite for any social programs, except for disabled or people who have a legitimate reason to not work. I have in my time, work minimum waged jobs, and supported myself and my family without any help. To advance in life and in personal financial success, I didn't stay at minimum wage for long, I was either promoted quickly or switched jobs to a better situation.

P.S. Quoting sources and statistics for this topics is not needed for me, I live in the real world and I work along side minimum wage workers and have for years. They usually only stay at that low wage for a short time until they develop more marketable skills and either move up within the same company or find a place who will pay them what they are worth. If they don't improve their skills to be worth more money, then all we are doing is rewarding laziness with this increase.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Mark R. » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:31 pm

Doug Davis wrote:
Adriel Gray wrote:Fine... Here is your point by point retort. I hope it is everything you wanted it to be... How I slaved for you:


Nope its was mostly a long winded personal attack and screed against me, without any real effort put into stating your opinion and then supporting it with referenced published material.

Given you supposedly have a philosophy degree I expected better internet trolling than that. Work harder.
I will give you 4 out of 10 due to length though.

Doug, I think that you are not without blame as far as personal attacks in this thread go either. It's a topic that many people have very strong feelings about and many of them don't even want to listen to what the other side has to say which was certainly the case many times in this thread.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Doug Davis » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:24 pm

Mark R. wrote:
Doug Davis wrote:
Adriel Gray wrote:Fine... Here is your point by point retort. I hope it is everything you wanted it to be... How I slaved for you:


Nope its was mostly a long winded personal attack and screed against me, without any real effort put into stating your opinion and then supporting it with referenced published material.

Given you supposedly have a philosophy degree I expected better internet trolling than that. Work harder.
I will give you 4 out of 10 due to length though.

Doug, I think that you are not without blame as far as personal attacks in this thread go either. It's a topic that many people have very strong feelings about and many of them don't even want to listen to what the other side has to say which was certainly the case many times in this thread.



I agree.
But when I try to divorce politics from it or uninformed opinion (which is not the same as an intelligent well thought out and researched opinion)...I get people posting things like:
Quoting sources and statistics for this topics is not needed for me, I live in the real world

Which means I might as well be trying to debate science with people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old or climate change deniers or 911 truthers, as they dont care whether or not their opinion actually has any basis in fact or reality. This is math and science we are trying to discuss, not faith and religion. But without facts and research, people have essentially turned an economics debate into a religious one with nothing more than their "faith" to go on.
ie "This is what I believe to be true and nothing you show me or tell me will dissuade from that belief."
And yes that people can be so obstinate infuriates me to no end.

It would be incredibly helpful if they would write at the beginning of their post:
"This is an un-researched opinion based all on conjecture and anecdotal evidence. Nor do I have any desire to become better informed in the process. I just want to post."
Then I could safely ignore it.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Rick Boman » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:33 am

Doug Davis wrote:

I agree.
But when I try to divorce politics from it or uninformed opinion (which is not the same as an intelligent well thought out and researched opinion)...I get people posting things like:
Quoting sources and statistics for this topics is not needed for me, I live in the real world

Which means I might as well be trying to debate science with people who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old or climate change deniers or 911 truthers, as they dont care whether or not their opinion actually has any basis in fact or reality. This is math and science we are trying to discuss, not faith and religion. But without facts and research, people have essentially turned an economics debate into a religious one with nothing more than their "faith" to go on.
ie "This is what I believe to be true and nothing you show me or tell me will dissuade from that belief."
And yes that people can be so obstinate infuriates me to no end.

It would be incredibly helpful if they would write at the beginning of their post:
"This is an un-researched opinion based all on conjecture and anecdotal evidence. Nor do I have any desire to become better informed in the process. I just want to post."
Then I could safely ignore it.


The problem is that you aren't debating facts or science, you are debating economics, other peoples interpretations of certain results. To compare my statement about not caring about sources or topics as being a 9-11 truther or climate change denier is just intellectually dishonest. Just another method of trying to dismiss out of hand what others believe that don't jive with your own ideas.

I could be dissuaded from something if you can show me how it would actually succeed here, in fly over country. I am open minded, but this thread has turned into someone's doctoral thesis on Economic policy.

I see why some have decided to go dark on this forum. If you don't agree with someone, you are open to attacks that amount to no more than an intellectual pissing match. You see, Doug, comparing me to a 9-11 truther, or what my religious views are on the age of the Earth(I believe the Earth is billions of years old) is what I would call bullying. I had loved ones who died that day. Don't let your enormous ego go there.

I can use conjecture as I see fit, since all you have been talking about is theories and ideas, while what I was referring to was real world results that I have personally witnessed. As to un-researched opinions, guess what? They are opinions I have, not over-researched, so called facts that have just as many studies to debunk whichever side you take.

Why paint people who disagree with you with same brush as one would paint religious zealots. I thought they only did that in election ads. You base your statements on facts of Math and science, but have to resort to that type of labeling. That's what people who don't have the facts of math and science on their side do. Since you say you have this on your side, why resort to this?

You could safely ignore anything anyone posts unless your urge to be seen intellectually superior gets in the way.

And yes, I do want to post, without being unfairly attacked. I feel that I should post since your argument with others has taken up the lion's share of posts in this topic. Just because you believe yourself to be an economics expert should in no way impede my right to post what I witness everyday. All your studies and sources don't matter to me because I have personal experiences that contradict what your sources are saying. My life experience is my research, which is conducted by me. Your research was done by others.

You don't have to agree with what I say, but you sure could be a gentleman and not insult me. As up until now, I did not insult you.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Robin Garr » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:55 am

I'm sorry that we're getting a cranky feel in thus post. It's a subject that brings up a lot of passion, and I don't exclude myself.

We're kind of pushing the limits of what's doable in cyberspace, though.

Anyone like the idea of a "cordial economics debate offline"? Get together for a friendly conversation over good food and drink?
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by TP Lowe » Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:01 am

I just respectfully disagree with Rick. Economics studies have significant values in the real world, as well, in so many nonpolitical settings I can't begin to describe them. I'm not particularly political but I look at macroeconomic data daily in my work. I couldn't care less how either party spins the data, I use it in its raw form to do good work for my clients.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Steve H » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:39 am

TP Lowe wrote:I just respectfully disagree with Rick. Economics studies have significant values in the real world, as well, in so many nonpolitical settings I can't begin to describe them. I'm not particularly political but I look at macroeconomic data daily in my work. I couldn't care less how either party spins the data, I use it in its raw form to do good work for my clients.


Hopefully macroeconomic data should be collected and compiled in an objective and clear manner. There can be arguments over data if it's possible that it's been corrupted or manipulated. But, most of the arguments in economics are about interpretation of the data, e.g. where are we, how did we get here and where are we going?

Then there's the whole policy thing to argue about. That's where folks start trying to manipulate various aspects of the economy to guide it to where they want it to go. That's been the dispute in this thread.

Now, I'm gonna use your post to launch a little dissertation.....
(sorry! :lol: )

<soapbox>
IMO, this opens up a can of worms. Every economic manipulation by the government will create 'winners' and 'losers'. This creates a type of Public Choice/Collective Action problem where the winners are very clear and can lobby the government for more policies favorable to themselves.

The losers, however, are often diffuse and might not even understand that they are losers. In the case of Minimum Wage laws, the losers are people who can't volunteer at wineries anymore, or maybe a kid who doesn't have the freedom to work for less to gain access to training and mentoring, or even worse, folks who will not be able to find jobs 6 months from now because of decreased employment growth.

The winners in this scenario are easy to find and organize. They still have minimum wage jobs and unions are actively trying to organize them. Who is speaking for the winery volunteers? Who cares about a teenager with no skills? And who the heck knows who the people are without jobs who would have otherwise had them? They aren't a natural group to organize, even if you could possibly identify them.

So, people who benefit from government favors are specific and easy to organize for more favors. People harmed by that same policy are diffuse, hard to identify, and cannot be organized to fight back against the policy that harmed them.

You can analyze almost every government intervention this way. The winners are loud, recognizable, and organized, while no one even knows who the losers are. This effect reinforces the trend toward ever more government intervention. And politicians feed on the specific/winner vs. diffuse/loser dichotomy to manipulate voters.

So, even if government was rational and had sufficient knowledge (see Local knowledge problem) to guide the economy, it's immoral because it always favors some groups over others. Our government is supposed to be impartial, right? And over the long term, the rationality of empowering government this way is questionable. Public Choice/Collective Action problems always lead to things like regulatory capture, cronyism, and pandering.

Though sometimes enough losers stack up, becoming noticeable. Then another government program is called for to help them, all without understanding that it a previous government intervention that screwed things up to begin with.

For example, unemployment is always the fault of evil capitalists who ship jobs overseas. It's never the fault of politicians making it more difficult to hire people. So, what we really need is a law so evil capitalists can't ship jobs overseas!
</soapbox>
Last edited by Steve H on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Steve H » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:55 am

Rick Boman wrote:I can use conjecture as I see fit, since all you have been talking about is theories and ideas, while what I was referring to was real world results that I have personally witnessed. As to un-researched opinions, guess what? They are opinions I have, not over-researched, so called facts that have just as many studies to debunk whichever side you take.
...

Just because you believe yourself to be an economics expert should in no way impede my right to post what I witness everyday. All your studies and sources don't matter to me because I have personal experiences that contradict what your sources are saying. My life experience is my research, which is conducted by me. Your research was done by others.


These are as perfect descriptions of the Local knowledge problem that I've seen in awhile.

Good job!
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Doug Davis » Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Rick Boman wrote:The problem is that you aren't debating facts or science, you are debating economics, other peoples interpretations of certain results.


Firstly, Im sorry my post wasnt meant as an attack or insult.

Secondly, do you see your line I quoted above? What exactly do you think science is? Honestly?
Its the exact same thing.
You propose a hypothesis.
You test your hypothesis and collect data.
You see if the hypothesis is supported by the data and what the outcome was.
You publish the results for peer review.
Economists who work in academia do essentially the same thing.

Are there some who work in biased think tanks, or for specific political parties? Sure, then we rule them out as they have an obvious bias. Same as the doctor working for the chemical manufacturer telling you this insecticide is safe to eat on your apples.
Are there some who publish work on hypothetical theories, which havent or cant be tested? Just like theoretical physics? Yes, then we rule them out as well.

And youre right, your experience is valuable. Personal experience can give us amazing insights but can also lead us to have blinders on. And in your first post for better or worse, your opening statement made you sound very dismissive of any research and close minded in what that research may say. If thats not true, then we just had a miscommunication.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Rick Boman » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:19 pm

Doug Davis wrote:
Rick Boman wrote:The problem is that you aren't debating facts or science, you are debating economics, other peoples interpretations of certain results.


Firstly, Im sorry my post wasnt meant as an attack or insult.

Secondly, do you see your line I quoted above? What exactly do you think science is? Honestly?
Its the exact same thing.
You propose a hypothesis.
You test your hypothesis and collect data.
You see if the hypothesis is supported by the data and what the outcome was.
You publish the results for peer review.
Economists who work in academia do essentially the same thing.

Are there some who work in biased think tanks, or for specific political parties? Sure, then we rule them out as they have an obvious bias. Same as the doctor working for the chemical manufacturer telling you this insecticide is safe to eat on your apples.
Are there some who publish work on hypothetical theories, which havent or cant be tested? Just like theoretical physics? Yes, then we rule them out as well.

And youre right, your experience is valuable. Personal experience can give us amazing insights but can also lead us to have blinders on. And in your first post for better or worse, your opening statement made you sound very dismissive of any research and close minded in what that research may say. If thats not true, then we just had a miscommunication.


My problem is only with the interpretation of the results part of the scientific method.

I apologize if I took something personally, that wasn't meant that way. I am not dismissive of science. Economics is, in my opinion, too political, or maybe it is how Economics is reported. I am dismissive of the way results are spun by both sides to basically interpret the results to meet their forgone conclusions. I was an engineering student at Speed School at UofL years ago. I do understand the scientific method and love science. But I hear contradictory economic reports on both sides every week. Fox News always downplays any gains and piles on any negatives. Conversely, CNBC downplays all negatives and pumps up positives. See, that is why I put little credence in the experts. Unless I can see un-scrubbed results from the research. Maybe point me to resources and experts that are unbiased, truly unbiased, and I will listen.

I am very right of center in my views, but I do keep my mind open.

As Robin suggested, maybe an offline may be in order, to bury any hatchets that need burying, to put faces with the ideals and sound some ideas back and forth.

I apologize for any character attacks I put out there. I was hopped up on steroids from this bronchitis I am trying to get over and got miffed.
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Re: Fast-food minimum wage, lies and lying liars ...

by Doug Davis » Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:29 pm

Rick Boman wrote:or maybe it is how Economics is reported.

Boom! Look at that we have agreement! :lol:
Thats the sole biggest problem right there.

Its like the difference between politics and political science.


Maybe point me to resources and experts that are unbiased, truly unbiased, and I will listen.


Well you yourself pointed out the problem listening to most major news sources. Its unfortunate but most major news channels, at least those within the US, have found that being biased (MSNBC, Fox) is worth more in terms of viewership and advertising revenue.

So generally I either pay attention to BBC, Guardian or Spiegel. I also tend to enjoy some of the Atlantic and Al Jazeera America, depending on the story. But for most economic news I read either The Economist or Bloomberg Business News.

Here are two awesome and excellent stories about reporting economic news and why its so messed up. They are actually really good reads. The Business Week article is how the West has gone about systematically destroying economic facts, on purpose in order to obscure what the market is doing ie the mortgage crisis and the financial meltdown.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/03/the- ... perce.html
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 634112.htm


I am very right of center in my views, but I do keep my mind open.

I was at one time as well. Until I acknowledged the fact that business will do ANYTHING in order to pursue profit. And there's nothing wrong with that. But they simply dont have a self-regulating emergency stop measure, as some like to imagine. Nor does the market "punish" bad business in the way others would like us to believe.
Which is how we ended up with Clean Rivers Act. Because without government interference and regulation the rivers, just like the Cuyahoga, were going to keep catching on fire from chemicals. We can see the same happening in California right now in terms of the conflict between cities needing water for drinking and corporate agribusiness sucking the rivers dry to feed the farms.
Are there exceptions to this? Of course, which is how we end up with companies like Costco who pay far above minimum wage, or other companies that practice sustainable business policies whether its retail, manufacturing or agribusiness. They have committed to trying to seek profit while minimizing impact, but companies like that are the exception to the rule rather than being the norm.

Cheers! :D
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