Let's just agree it's a problem

Is that a problem? If the table is open, does it matter? (I realize balancing out servers, but there should be a way to adjust that on the fly)

On a related issue that comes up, I was at a bank today at 3:50 and one of the tellers starts counting her drawer. THERE IS A LINE OF CUSTOMERS, YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL 4:01 TO START THAT. Same for kitchens, if your advertised hours are until 10, then coming in at 9:55 shouldnt be an issue.

Oh, that is a great belly laugh. Thank you. Seriously? You have pretty obviously never worked in a kitchen, nor at a bank. I've worked at both.

Rob!

you can break down the kitchen before close, but you also must be prepared to fire everything back up for that table that sits at 10 minutes prior to close. I've done it a million times.

I understand the service industry's desire to accommodate every guest, no matter how close to closing it is.

But why shouldn't we treat restaurants like we would any other business? Every other business has a posted closing time and you have until that time to get your business conducted.

You wouldn't go to an amusement park 5 minutes before they close and expect to get your run of the park. You wouldn't drop your car off at a mechanic at closing time and expect them to stay open until they were done working on it. Hell, even your average bar will have you out the door at the minute they close.

So why are restaurants fair game to walk into 5 minutes before close and stay as long as you want? Why does the posted closing time have to be the last time you can walk in and not the time you should be finished conducting your business?

you can break down the kitchen before close, but you also must be prepared to fire everything back up for that table that sits at 10 minutes prior to close. I've done it a million times.

We've all done it a million times. That is what you do! But it's still "an issue". Gary's right - I like the amusement park comparison.

I understand the service industry's desire to accommodate every guest, no matter how close to closing it is.

But why shouldn't we treat restaurants like we would any other business? Every other business has a posted closing time and you have until that time to get your business conducted.

You wouldn't go to an amusement park 5 minutes before they close and expect to get your run of the park. You wouldn't drop your car off at a mechanic at closing time and expect them to stay open until they were done working on it. Hell, even your average bar will have you out the door at the minute they close.

So why are restaurants fair game to walk into 5 minutes before close and stay as long as you want? Why does the posted closing time have to be the last time you can walk in and not the time you should be finished conducting your business?

THIS.

I've never worked in the industry and don't expect I ever will. But I wouldn't dream of walking into a restaurant just before closing unless I was confident I could be back out the door before the posted closing time. That's unspeakably rude.

THIS.

I've never worked in the industry and don't expect I ever will. But I wouldn't dream of walking into a restaurant just before closing unless I was confident I could be back out the door before the posted closing time. That's unspeakably rude.

I agree but recently went into a fast casual, local place that had chairs on the tables half hour before closing. Hubby had to help a lady remove the chairs from the table as she and her group were eating in...we took our hot dog baskets to the tables outside..Talked to the manager online the next day or so and he/she was not the least bit happy...I figured it was kids wanting to get to other activities.

I agree but recently went into a fast casual, local place that had chairs on the tables half hour before closing. Hubby had to help a lady remove the chairs from the table as she and her group were eating in...we took our hot dog baskets to the tables outside..Talked to the manager online the next day or so and he/she was not the least bit happy...I figured it was kids wanting to get to other activities.

This is grounds for termination in our system, Bev. You look like you are the busiest you have ever been until closing time is reached, then you put chairs on tables, etc. The guest should never get the impression that you are trying to close until you are closed.

It is amazing how, over the past 25 years, I have become the Evil Owner. As Evil Owner, I want to serve every last possible guest who wishes to eat at my establishment, even the one who rushes in the door at 5 past close. It may inconvenience my staff and myself to stay a few extra minutes to clean up, but it is more important to me to honor the guest and their desire to patronize my restaurant. Are there abuses, sure, and you simply cannot let impolite folk overrun your generosity, but if it is possible to still serve the guest, I am going to make every effort to do so. I believe truly gracious customers appreciate this (if I am wrong, truly gracious customers, please tell me, so I can stop!).

I still have gloomy memories from years past when I was the Lowly Employee and the Evil Owner would allow some diners it at 10 past close. Oh the rage, oh the injustice. But now being the Evil Owner, I get the other side of it as well.

There has to be a reasonable compromise and I think a good proprietor can find that compromise and make it work for both staff and customers.

You are talking to the guy who had to turn away Pauly Shore, no less, when he showed up at our door as we were locking up and leaving one night. I know the pain from both sides!

Is that a problem? If the table is open, does it matter? (I realize balancing out servers, but there should be a way to adjust that on the fly)

On a related issue that comes up, I was at a bank today at 3:50 and one of the tellers starts counting her drawer. THERE IS A LINE OF CUSTOMERS, YOU CAN WAIT UNTIL 4:01 TO START THAT. Same for kitchens, if your advertised hours are until 10, then coming in at 9:55 shouldnt be an issue.

Oh, that is a great belly laugh. Thank you. Seriously? You have pretty obviously never worked in a kitchen, nor at a bank. I've worked at both.

Rob!

Yes, but Ive worked at plenty of other businesses. And we stay past "closing" if customers want to give us money.

Back in the 90s I would get calls from the legal department of a major retailer about 4:45 on Friday. They would have an ad starting on Sunday and would need verification that all the statements were accurate. It wasnt a big deal, I just got it done. Sometimes I had to stay until 5:30!!!

Wouldnt it have been nice if they had made the call, oh, I dont know, on Tuesday? Or before noon even? Yes, but that was the job, and I just laughed about it. It was funny, one time the guy seemed really apologetic about it, he was obviously new.

BTW, my wife worked in banks and she said they were told to count out after the last customer.

I understand the service industry's desire to accommodate every guest, no matter how close to closing it is.

But why shouldn't we treat restaurants like we would any other business?

Paged at 4 AM?

So, on my way home from the data center after fixing the late night server crash, I can text you for some munchies?

Thats how every other business works. At least the ones Ive worked in.

There has to be a reasonable compromise and I think a good proprietor can find that compromise and make it work for both staff and customers.

I think that is easy. If you are going to start breaking down the kitchen at 10, post 9:30 as closing time.

Unrealistic, Rob. Usually when establishing hours of operation, you set your closing time 1 hour past your last profitable hour. This helps as it allows the staff to do their pre-breakdown activities and still serve customers, so that when the closing time is reached, the entire store doesn't have to be closed from top to bottom. You can't close and then pay employees to stand around for a half hour just in case there is a straggler.


Example, at J. Gumbo's UL, we close at 11. And you'll never know it, but we start breaking the kitchen down around 9-930, that's when the dinner rush is over and all we usually have left are bar stragglers between 930 and close. We clean out all equipment like coolers, we wash all dishes, take out the trash, sweep, mop, we basically do everything except put the food away, so that we can serve every guest up to 11 (and sometimes after). Then, at 11 we do the very last things to fully close the kitchen so we can go home. My closers are never here past 1130 except in unusual circumstances (March Madness comes to mind...)

Bigger kitchens are different and more labor intensive, but the principle is the same.

As an owner I am losing money every minute that open sign is off and I have employees on the clock. You have to have procedures in place to minimize that loss. Pre-breakdown is one of the those procedures. But you MUST maintain the illusion that you are still open and running up to the last tick on the clock and you MUST be prepared to serve up to that point. This is why hours of operation are set the way they are.

Unrealistic, Rob. Usually when establishing hours of operation, you set your closing time 1 hour past your last profitable hour. This helps as it allows the staff to do their pre-breakdown activities and still serve customers, so that when the closing time is reached, the entire store doesn't have to be closed from top to bottom. You can't close and then pay employees to stand around for a half hour just in case there is a straggler.


Example, at J. Gumbo's UL, we close at 11. And you'll never know it, but we start breaking the kitchen down around 9-930, that's when the dinner rush is over and all we usually have left are bar stragglers between 930 and close. We clean out all equipment like coolers, we wash all dishes, take out the trash, sweep, mop, we basically do everything except put the food away, so that we can serve every guest up to 11 (and sometimes after). Then, at 11 we do the very last things to fully close the kitchen so we can go home. My closers are never here past 1130 except in unusual circumstances (March Madness comes to mind...)

Bigger kitchens are different and more labor intensive, but the principle is the same.

As an owner I am losing money every minute that open sign is off and I have employees on the clock. You have to have procedures in place to minimize that loss. Pre-breakdown is one of the those procedures. But you MUST maintain the illusion that you are still open and running up to the last tick on the clock and you MUST be prepared to serve up to that point. This is why hours of operation are set the way they are.

As long as you are prepared to serve, there isnt a problem. As long as the customer interacting people arent pulled off to do the tasks, I dont see a problem. But the bank teller shutting down one line at 3:50 when there was a line of customers is a problem. I guess the equivalent is the chairs stacked on the tables, which you said is verboten in your restaurants.

Edit: The 2nd solution is to put the staff on salary, then just work them more hours! To make the analogies I was making more accurate.

Well, you never know what was going on with that teller - maybe her drawer was out of balance, or she'd reached her cash limit and that means it doesn't matter what else is going on, you are forced to stop and drop the money to bring your drawer's balance back down to where you can do business again.

Well, you never know what was going on with that teller - maybe her drawer was out of balance, or she'd reached her cash limit and that means it doesn't matter what else is going on, you are forced to stop and drop the money to bring your drawer's balance back down to where you can do business again.

True. Except Ive seen it happen at just before closing enough other times to doubt that.

There was one branch I used to bank at that regularly did the door lock thing about 2 minutes early. That was far worse. And on that, whats with banking hours anyway? As every other retail establishment has gone to longer and longer hours (including many going to 24/7), how have banks managed to avoid the trend?

I dunno - my bank has Saturday hours now and stays open until 5:30 weekdays. Where are you banking?