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Wouldyou dine al fresco if there's smoking?

Sure, why not?
15
27%
I'd do it, but not happily
4
7%
Hard to say. Depends on circumstances
9
16%
I'd probably pass and go inside
10
18%
Absolutely not!
18
32%
Other (discuss)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 56
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Carla G

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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Carla G » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:20 pm

I think there should be restaurants where ONLY smokers would be allowed. Then we could do comparative studies on those restaurants with non smoking restaurants. Of course, when the smoking restaurants returns show a higher rate of cancer they will, no doubt, blame -
1. The traffic outside the restaurant
2. The children on the patio
3. Lack of meat entrees on the menu

:twisted: snark snark
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Andrew Mellman » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:14 pm

Jon K wrote:[quote="Jeff Cavanaugh"
R shown an association between second-hand smoke and malignancy. . . . That said, I'll endure the occasional waft of second-hand smoke for really great pizza.



There IS something of an "association", but my only point is that no one has proven causality! As a scientist, you know that there is a HUGE difference between those points! (easy example: 100% of serial killers have been shown to drink milk as children, while for the universe at large the number is closer to 96%. Does that mean we should ban milk?)

Similarely, if RonnieO had indicated that he was showing early signs of lung problems (thank God he didn't), that would make for a more compelling argument on a personal "micro" sense, that inhaling his parents second-hand smoke during his formative years likely led to his current problems.
Last edited by Andrew Mellman on Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Andrew Mellman » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:17 pm

Carla G wrote:I think there should be restaurants where ONLY smokers would be allowed. Then we could do comparative studies on those restaurants with non smoking restaurants. Of course, when the smoking restaurants returns show a higher rate of cancer they will, no doubt, blame -
1. The traffic outside the restaurant
2. The children on the patio
3. Lack of meat entrees on the menu

:twisted: snark snark



Take it one step further: would the wait staff all have to be smokers or non-smokers (whichever were appropriate)? What would you do if you had to assign a non-smoking waiter to the smoking patio and they became sick? Still snarky, but in today's world . . .
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Steve P

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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Steve P » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:55 pm

I always get a great big chuckle when people who don't like -smelling- cigarette smoke try and justify themselves by playing the "second hand smoke" card......Let's see, ya just put weed killer on your lawn, ya got a garage full of toxic chemicals that you play with on a semi regular basis, same thing with the household cleaners under your sink, your carpet contains PTFE (which breaks down producing a cancer causing chemical PFOA) you haven't changed your furnace filter in MONTHS, your refrigerator and freezer are -loaded- with food containing ingredients you can't pronounce and know nothing about, you drive a gas-guzzling SUV to a restaurant where you commence to fill your body full of trans-fat and diet soda who's primary ingredient is a frickin' cancer causing neurotoxin and -somehow- while sitting upwind from my after dinner cigarette,..which I am smoking OUTSIDE, I'M putting your health in jeopardy ??? Ya'll need to get a frickin' life. If you don't like smelling smoke, then dammit...say you don't like smelling smoke but until you clean up the REST of your life put that second hand smoke - in the open air is killing me" card back in your wallet. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Gary Z » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:55 pm

Approaching this from a health perspective is ridiculous. Obesity and diet related illnesses kill way more people than tobacco. http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2013/07/p ... ng-people/

Seems kinda hypocritical to complain about a little cigarette smoke ruining your attempt to eat an entire pizza.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Jay M. » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:02 pm

Steve P wrote:...l always get a great big chuckle...If you don't like smelling smoke, then dammit...say you don't like smelling smoke...

Glad we make you chuckle. Dammit, I don't like smelling smoke.

Hence, my vote to go inside (or leave).

Like Ronnie, I have endured a partial lifetime of second hand smoke while growing up with two smoking parents in a small house. Dear father died from complications related to smoking (COPD) and his heart surgeon told us after surgery that his lungs were black.

But, again, regardless of health effects (or not), dammit, I don't like smelling smoke.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Mark R. » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:13 pm

Jay M. wrote: But, again, regardless of health effects (or not), dammit, I don't like smelling smoke.

I certainly agree with that sentiment and I highly doubt that many people could honestly say they like smelling smoke, even most smokers don't like smelling it especially afterwards!
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Bill P » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:27 pm

I'm an ex-tobacco addict and I've been sitting here trying to think the last time someone smoking cigarettes on a dining patio caused my shorts to knot up...thinking...thinking...thinking.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Margie L » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:34 pm

Steve P wrote:I would rather share a patio with smokers than I would families with small children... :twisted:


Seconded
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by RonnieD » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:06 am

Andrew, it's only a matter of time. I can only hope that now that I have spent more time away from the constant, involuntary barrage of second hand smoke than I spent in it, that my lungs have recovered and are healthy again and not a ticking time bomb riddled with cancer (thanks Mom and Dad!)

SteveP, it's funny, but I'm definitely the first part of what you are ranting about, but not a single aspect of the second part describes me. I must be a rare gem! I do not like cigarette smoke at all, despise it you might say. I have no problem telling you that. And the rest of my life is pretty clean by your standards. Does this mean you have to listen to me without laughing? :roll:
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Steve P » Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:58 am

RonnieD wrote: I must be a rare gem!... Does this mean you have to listen to me without laughing? :roll:


You are a rare gem and no, I don't laugh at your views or opinions, even though they may differ from my own. I was merely "chuckling" about what -I- personally think is the silliness of the entire debate.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Steve H » Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:41 am

I'm probably ok unless the smoke is blowing right at me. I've been places where several people are smoking without issue. But, I've also been places where one guy lights up and it feels like it's blowing straight into my nose. Personally, I try to follow the "live and let live" principal, but how can it not be rude to light up around other diners? If it's a bar, I can easily move. If I'm dinning, it's a major hassle to move "upwind".

I used to respect "science". All it takes is one area where you are personally knowledgeable, where you KNOW that what "science" is trying to tell you is BS. The illusion is shattered. It's touching the faith some people put in the "science" that's reported in the newspaper, but it's a flawed human institution just like everything else. And it's getting increasingly politicized all the time, and government funded "science" is probably the worst.

This is all just prelude to my saying that I'm very skeptical of any research around the dangers of second hand smoke. A good rule of thumb is that any "science" that comes with a political or social agenda attached is highly prone to manipulation.

Isn't it weird that the folks most strongly against tobacco are silent about marijuana smoking? See, it's healthy when it's marijuana! Seems like it's more about the folks making and using tobacco than it is actually about the tobacco.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Andrew Mellman » Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:42 am

Steve H wrote:
Isn't it weird that the folks most strongly against tobacco are silent about marijuana smoking? See, it's healthy when it's marijuana! Seems like it's more about the folks making and using tobacco than it is actually about the tobacco.


While I agree with you, there are two points:

1. Weed tends to have many fewer additives than tobacco when smoked, and while no one knows for sure many feel that the additives add to the "danger" of tobacco; and
2. There is virtually no difference in health between a non-smoker and a smoker who smokes a half-pack or less per day (put second hand smoke breathers in this category!), and very few marijuana smokers smoke more than ten sticks per day!
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Steve H » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:18 am

Andrew Mellman wrote:2. There is virtually no difference in health between a non-smoker and a smoker who smokes a half-pack or less per day (put second hand smoke breathers in this category!), and very few marijuana smokers smoke more than ten sticks per day!


I never thought about it like that! Yeah, I've known some stoners, but none of them actually light up as much as the smokers. Except, usually they seem do both. Thanks for the food for thought.
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Re: Quick poll: Would you dine al fresco if there's smoking?

by Jon K » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:30 am

Andrew Mellman wrote:
Jon K wrote:[quote="Jeff Cavanaugh"
R shown an association between second-hand smoke and malignancy. . . . That said, I'll endure the occasional waft of second-hand smoke for really great pizza.



There IS something of an "association", but my only point is that no one has proven causality! As a scientist, you know that there is a HUGE difference between those points! (easy example: 100% of serial killers have been shown to drink milk as children, while for the universe at large the number is closer to 96%. Does that mean we should ban milk?)


Andrew, you make a good point about the difference between associations and causality, but in science we use both types of studies. In most epidemiological studies we use the term correlation as a substitute for association. Correlations can be positive, but still false, as in the case of serial killers drinking milk. This results from a failure to control for the many other variables affecting this relationship that the researchers may not know about. For instance, mental health issues may not have been incorporated into our fictitious study examining the role of childhood milk drinking in serial murders. Fortunately, researchers have a number of good statistical models that allow them to separate the effect of one variable from others, thereby leaving them more confident about the correlations they have observed. Still correlation is never causation. That said, does that mean we should ignore correlative studies. The answer is no, because studies to examine causation require the control of all variables; something that is not practical or is frequently unethical in humans. For example, we couldn't put humans in a chamber and expose them to large amounts of milk and then determine if they have homicidal impulses. Most often, it's correlative studies that lead to insights that are then tested in causal studies. That's how the relationship between smoking and lung cancer was first discovered, as well as the relationship between high cholesterol and heart attack. Both types of studies are useful.
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