Sous Vide Equiptment

I am came across this today whilst surfing.

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/ ... de-gadget/

I am interested in one. My rule is that anyone on kickstarter wanting funding, MUST have donated to others on kickstarter. So I will look at that and think about it. Other wise if will probably be much more in a store.

So Chefs what do you think of this? Is it going to sweep into the home kitchen Christmas 2013? Would it be something you would get 3, 4 or 8 of to use in a variety of pots to cook meals over days?

I know that Roger - his Chef - at Bank Street Brew House is doing poached eggs sous vide. Wife said they were awesome when we were there for Sunday brunch a couple weeks ago.

Discuss Freely, I'll monitor.

It's the new crock pot. I'm sure those who want to cook like a chef and cant properly poach an egg or cook meat by conventional method will be lined up to get one. I dont think I'll ever get the apeal of a runny egg white.

It's the new crock pot. I'm sure those who want to cook like a chef and cant properly poach an egg or cook meat by conventional method will be lined up to get one. I dont think I'll ever get the apeal of a runny egg white.

You've had an improperly cooked sous vide egg.

The thing about cooking sous vide and I think a lot of the backlash that it has gotten (and will only further receive with people doing it in their homes) is that some people don't properly research the techniques they're applying. They see cook an egg to 62C or 63C, think they can throw it in for 15-20 minutes and they're done, but that's not how it works at all.

It is a time/temperature ratio that determines the egg consistency, not just the temperature as much sous vide literature incorrectly states.

Further reading on this subject:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/68q ... ltext.html

:
Conclusions
The thickening and gelation kinetics of egg yolk at relatively low and constant cooking temperatures follow Arrhenius-type kinetic relationships showing that, contrary to popular wisdom and in some cases even ill-conceived technical advice,6,50 both time and temperature are relevant in the texture development of 6X°C eggs. Hence, there is no such thing as a 63 °C or a 65 °C egg. The E a of these processes was ∼470 kJ mol−1, which agrees well with the values reported for the denaturation and gelation of the thermally labile chicken serum albumin and immunoglobulin Y. The role of the abundant LDL proteins on soft-boiled eggs is unclear and demands future work. While scientific in nature, the results also have an actual practical application as they demonstrate that hypothesis-driven experimentation in the kitchen (i.e., science-assisted cooking) can enable better cooking and eating for all of us.

This video is a great example of the misinformation that is out there about sous vide. You absolutely can over cook things (and under cook) when using an immersion circulator as the process is about the relationship of time and temperature.

Brisket recommendations for example:
French Laundry: 147°F (64°C) water bath for 48 hours
Douglas Baldwin: 176°F (80°C) for 24–36 hours.
Others: 135°F (57°C) for 36–48 hours.

Anything less than 24 hours at any temperature that an immersion circulator can handle on brisket is going to be garbage. Anything over 100 hours; will probably be dried out garbage.


I like to view sous vide cooking like pork belly. It's trendy; because when done right it's fantastic. But people want to jump on the bandwagon without doing the proper research and end up putting out a mediocre product.
We see it time and time again with restaurant trends; charcuterie, expensive sliders, street food, people who think they're great home cooks and should run restaurants, etc. etc.

On another note; does it take out the technique necessary to know when a steak is the perfect medium rare just by touching it with our basting spoon? Yes, absolutely. But there is technique and skill involved with cooking sous vide as well; it's not slap it in a bag, set it, and forget it.

That is the kind of conversation I was looking for.

I don't really like poached eggs. I *hate* runny whites in fact.

Thanks for the information.

I suggest the following further reading on the subject:

Nils Noren & Dave Arnold's cooking blog: (Muckity Mucks at French Culinary Institute and where I first learned about cooking in immersion circulators)
http://www.cookingissues.com/primers/sous-vide/

Douglas Baldwin's Sous Vide Guide: One of the first guys to take a really mathematical approach to it.
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

Khymos Blog on Molecular Gastronomy:
http://blog.khymos.org/

Modernist Cuisine Cookbook: If you've got money to burn it is the most important cook book out in the past few years. (Even if you have no interest in modernist/molecular cooking).
http://modernistcuisine.com/

Don't waste your time with the French Laundry's Sous Vide book Under Pressure as a lot of their time/temps seem off.

But what do I know? I just cook BBQ.

I like everything about this project and it seems like they have the team to make it succeed. I've invested enough to get a unit for myself. I don't think this will be a device touted as the next crock pot.

Ryan, thanks for the great information - really looking forward to trying Feast BBQ.

Anything less than 24 hours at any temperature that an immersion circulator can handle on brisket is going to be garbage.

If you hop over to the kitchen forum you can see some short ribs that I sous vide-ed in a total rube Goldberg contraption: a Dutch oven on top of two burner grates on top of a super heavy heat diffuse that I monitored by hand with an instant read meat thermometer and mitigated with ice cubes when necessary. I kept it at 135 plus or minus a few degrees for something like 9 or 10 hours. It was among the best plates of meat I have ever prepared and no false modesty here, comparable to plates I have been served in Michelin starred restaurants. A second run withe the same contraption was far less successful. Granted, the first run was with a pretty superior cut (English cut Barr farms short ribs from a steer that had been slaughtered just three days prior). And I have every intention of having another go at it (i have a nice veal brisket i am waiting to give a long warm bath) though I accept my results will vary widely.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17791&start=210

But what do I know? I just cook BBQ.

...with a gang of polyscience gear...

This is a bit off topic but the last health inspection I underwent the health inspector upon seeing that we use a vacuum sealer requested we have a HACCP plan in place for anything we vacuum seal. I’ve had a few conversations with other Chefs who have a vacuum sealer in their kitchen and had recent health inspections and they weren’t required to have a HACCP plan in place regarding all items that may be sealed. I was just wondering if anyone else has been required to present a plan to the health department? It wouldn’t be an issue for me if I only had to worry about a set menu, but we have so many odds and ends from parties, chef’s tables, benefits ect. that it is becomming a pain in the ass to prepare.

[Robin Garr]

This is a bit off topic but the last health inspection I underwent the health inspector upon seeing that we use a vacuum sealer requested we have a HACCP plan in place for anything we vacuum seal. I’ve had a few conversations with other Chefs who have a vacuum sealer in their kitchen and had recent health inspections and they weren’t required to have a HACCP plan in place regarding all items that may be sealed. I was just wondering if anyone else has been required to present a plan to the health department? It wouldn’t be an issue for me if I only had to worry about a set menu, but we have so many odds and ends from parties, chef’s tables, benefits ect. that it is becomming a pain in the ass to prepare.

Here's a long article that might be interesting to you, Mark. I can't testify to how accurate it is, but the guy sounds like he's been there and done that.

http://www.cookingissues.com/2010/04/07 ... -a-vacuum/

Thank you robin, I was actually just thinking about why more people in Louisville don’t use the c-vap more, seeing as it is from Louisville. This article answers that question. I know of a steak house that was here in town that used a c-vap to cook steaks to rare the same way you would with sous vide method and sear them to order cutting down drastically on ticket times. That is only one of a hand full I’ve heard of that have used this method and only one place here in town that I know of still uses a c-vap, and actually I don’t know that they still use it. As Ryan posted from the same blogger there are two reasons to cryovac, for economy or for effect, I use it for economy. I like being able to portion and pack cuts of meat while cutting down on the chances of cross contamination, not to low temperature cook via sous vide, it’s just not my bag.

Thank you robin, I was actually just thinking about why more people in Louisville don’t use the c-vap more, seeing as it is from Louisville. This article answers that question. I know of a steak house that was here in town that used a c-vap to cook steaks to rare the same way you would with sous vide method and sear them to order cutting down drastically on ticket times. That is only one of a hand full I’ve heard of that have used this method and only one place here in town that I know of still uses a c-vap, and actually I don’t know that they still use it. As Ryan posted from the same blogger there are two reasons to cryovac, for economy or for effect, I use it for economy. I like being able to portion and pack cuts of meat while cutting down on the chances of cross contamination, not to low temperature cook via sous vide, it’s just not my bag.

I believe it is part of the KY health dept code that any food establishments using ROP need to have a HAACP plan in place to perform such actions within the rules (I know it is part of the Indiana Health Code).

410 IAC 7-24-73 “Reduced oxygen packaging” defined

Sec. 73. (a) “Reduced oxygen packaging” means the following:
(1) The reduction of the amount of oxygen in a package by:
(A) removing oxygen;
(B) displacing oxygen and replacing it with another gas or combination of gases; or
(C) otherwise controlling the oxygen content to a level below that normally found in the surrounding
twenty-one percent (21%) oxygen atmosphere.
(2) A process as specified in subdivision (1) that involves a food for which Clostridium botulinum is
identified as a microbiological hazard in the final packaged form.
(b) The term includes the following:
(1) Vacuum packaging in which air is removed from a package of food and the package is hermetically
sealed so that a vacuum remains inside the package, such as sous vide.
(2) Modified atmosphere packaging in which the atmosphere of a package of food is modified so that its
composition is different from air but the atmosphere may change over time due to the permeability of the
packaging material or the respiration of the food. Modified atmosphere packaging includes any of the
following:
(A) Reduction in the proportion of oxygen.
(B) Total replacement of oxygen.
(C) An increase in the proportion of other gases, such as carbon dioxide or nitrogen.
(3) Controlled atmosphere packaging in which the atmosphere of a package of food is modified so that
until the package is opened, its composition is different from air, and continuous control of that atmosphere is
maintained, such as by using oxygen scavengers or a combination of total replacement of oxygen,
nonrespiring food, and impermeable packaging material.

This could easily be construed to mean much more than just using a vacuum sealing device. From my interpretation it could realistically also be applied to using ziplock bags or even plastic wrap and pushing out excess air.
The thing about the health code is that it is so dense and open ended certain inspectors may call out restaurants on things that other restaurants get away with during every inspection. Especially if the inspectors don't even know what a vacuum sealer looks like.

Using vacuum sealers is fantastic for restaurants in the fact that we can hold foods longer and portion easier like Mark is doing. The problem is that ROP foods have a greater potential to grow clostridium botulinum which can lead to Botulism.

The hard truth though is that the majority of restaurants follow proper time/temperature standards in handling their foods and therefore clostridium botulinum is not a great concern.

Foodborne botulism is the rarest form of botulism, accounting for only around 15% of cases. Between 1990 and 2000, the Centers for Disease Control reported 263 individual 'cases' from 160 foodborne botulism 'events' in the United States with a case-fatality rate of 4%. Thirty-nine percent (103 cases and 58 events) occurred in Alaska, all of which were attributable to traditional Alaska aboriginal foods. In the lower 49 states, home-canned food was implicated in 70 (91%) events with canned asparagus being the most numerous cause. Two restaurant-associated outbreaks affected 25 persons. The median number of cases per year was 23 (range 17–43), the median number of events per year was 14 (range 9–24). The highest incidence rates occurred in Alaska, Idaho, Washington, and Oregon. All other states had an incidence rate of 1 case per ten million people or less.

2 Restaurants, 25 people, over the course of 10 years. With there being half of a million restaurants in the United States.
Is botulism something we should be concerned about? Of Course, but it can be easily handled by following proper time/temperature rules without restaurants having to implement costly HAACP plans.

That being said if you even so much as wrap your food in plastic wrap without a HAACP plan in place you risk the chance of a health inspector determining that you're doing ROP and therefore violating the health code.

Ryan, I was interested when I read that they consider a vacuum packaging ROP. This is because in in reality it really isn't. Any remaining air still contains 21% oxygen, the process actually just removes moves the air itself, not changes the composition of the air. I realize to some people this is the same thing but coming from an industrial background they're very different. No matter how long you run a vacuum pump you won't change the composition of the air so what really poses no risk from that possibility.

Ryan, I was interested when I read that they consider a vacuum packaging ROP. This is because in in reality it really isn't. Any remaining air still contains 21% oxygen, the process actually just removes moves the air itself, not changes the composition of the air. I realize to some people this is the same thing but coming from an industrial background they're very different. No matter how long you run a vacuum pump you won't change the composition of the air so what really poses no risk from that possibility.

And I haven't realistically seen anyone using a vacuum sealer of serious commercial grade strength that is able to remove all of the air from a package (If anyone is please let me come play with it).

The things about clostridium botulinum is that it can only produce neurotoxins during sporulation which can only occur in an anaerobic environment (an environment totally devoid of oxygen (for those of you who haven't been playing along)). Also spore growth only occurs in low acid (ph higher than 4.6) high moisture environments between 38F and 110F. Clostridium Botulinum is present in soil and water so all of our food sources are effected, but only the neurotoxins that are produced during sporulation which can only occur within those very distinct parameters can make you sick.


Personally my vacuum sealer does the trick in a pinch, but definitely leaves a traceable amount of air in the package thusly eliminating the ability of clostridium botulinum to grow. This of course means if I were to cook some vacuum sealed food I would potentially have a few floaters that may need to be weighted down so that they stay fully submerged, but that's really just my own personal problem.

And the bit in the health code about a vacuum remaining inside a sealed package is silly to say the least as air molecules take up only 0.1% of the volume they occupy making them a very sparse gas where 99.9% of the atmosphere is a vacuum, but I digress.

But what do I know? I just cook BBQ.

Yeah, right.

So when's it coming anyway? I'm starving for some of your 'Q.
Deb