Liquor Barn - ID required for everyone in party

This isn't directly related to Restaurants, so Robin, please feel free to move...

I had an unusual occurence this weekend at the Springhurst Liquor Barn. I was buying a 4-pack of beer (Dogfish Head Punkin Ale... mmm...) At the register I was carded, which I fully expected. I'm 26 years old, and may get carded 20% of the time at restaurants, but 100% of the time at liquor stores.

Then the clerk asked for my wife's ID. She is a few years older than me, and usually doesn't carry ID on her person unless she's driving. The clerk told us he couldn't sell us the beer until she got her ID. I asked what would happen if she left, but he told us that that wouldn't work since we entered the store together. Anyway, she had the ID in the car, so she went out to get it.

While she was getting ID, a woman in her 40's came through the line with a few teens (presumably her children, but maybe not) and she was able to purchase without incident. As my wife comes back in, we ask why they didn't require ID for the teens, and his response was something like, "C'mon, that's their mom. She's not going to give those kids alcohol."

I was confused... My wife asked if she were to bring her 60-year-old mother in with us, he wouldn't require us to show ID. He said, "well, no." Now I'm even more confused. The clerk didn't seem to see where the logic was breaking down. Hypothetically, a 40-year-old could take a 20-year-old (related or not) to the liquor store and buy the 20-year-old a whole bunch of booze, and be able to purchase it without being carded.

He finally told us that it was a state law requiring him to give us a hard time.

Now, I've gone to this very store with others on many occasions, and the only person required to show ID was me. I've even been to the Hurstbourne location with one of my nephews who is only 10 years younger than me, and I was able to purchase without incident.

I ask if this is a new law, and he says no. This brings me to one of the following conclusions:

1) There is a law on the books, but they're selectively enforcing it. OR
2) There is no such law, and the clerk is lying to me to try and shut me up.

So, my question to the forum is this: Is there a law on the books that requires a liquor store to card everyone in the party? And is there flexibility written into the law that allows for such discretion in enforcement? I couldn't find anything in my limited research.

I was going to ask the KY ABC, but I figured there were enough "ITB" folks on this forum that know the laws better than I do.

If this isn't a state law, then Liquor Barn is imposing policies that are designed to prevent me from spending my money in their stores. There are plenty of other places in Louisville where I can get the exact same products for very similar prices, and they won't give me the same hassle.

Sorry that was so long. Thanks for reading

[Robin Garr]

This isn't directly related to Restaurants, so Robin, please feel free to move...

No problem, David ... this forum is about food and drink ... and we're not strict about subject matter anyway.

Can't help with the specifics, but this does sound like overzealous or incompetent enforcement. There are some Liquor Barn guys on the forum rolls, so if one or more of them is looking on, I hope they'll chime in.

David,

I can't answer if it is state law or not, but I can tell you that I once worked at a place that sold truckloads of beer each week. Store policy required that I card everyone. If you were under 25 and you had other people with you (including in the car who didn't come in) I had to see their IDs too. I never questioned the owner about the policy. I knew he was just trying to prevent under aged drinking. At the time it seemed like the only people who cared were the people who were trying to buy for their friends.

-Scott

Each state is allowed to set their own laws; including age limits and sale restrictions. In regards to admission (typically at a larger store as Liquor Barn) and ID'ing everyone in the party; it's up to each store. HOWEVER, for the most part, people have turned to the norm of denying access to all under 21 years from bars to Liquor Barns. As mentioned by David, it's a CYA attitude. And a good one too. The only KY law I know that allows for kids and alcohol in one place is at restaurants and picnics. These type places.

But, I may have this all wrong. It changes every year.

David,

I hope you don't feel slighted by this. Like Kyle said, to be in that business you must be on guard at all times. I am pushing 40 and I still would not go into a liquor store without ID, regardless who was buying. I guess working in the industry trained me to think that way.

Thanks for the replies. I was figuring it is a store policy, and they use the "state law" defense to keep people from trying to get them to change it.

I'm not really mad... the whole episode was only slightly annoying (though it would've been more annoying if my wife didn't have her ID), and this all could have been avoided by a sign out front stating this policy.

I understand that Liquor stores are in constant fear of getting slapped with fines, etc. from the ABC and policies are put in place to cover themselves. But don't tell me your company policy is state law. I know the difference...

I understand the frustration, it is a slippery slope for the cashier and store ownership. However, that policy is noted on the Liquor Barn entrance, at least it is on the stores that I have been in.

-Pete

Thortons? or Speedway. I always get them confused...They will always card (or are suppose to do it) when attempting to purchase alcohol or tobacco. I know it's their company policy because of speaking to a couple people at the location near my home. The ABC is viewed like Internal Affairs in some people's eyes.

Thanks for the replies. I was figuring it is a store policy, and they use the "state law" defense to keep people from trying to get them to change it.

I'm not really mad... the whole episode was only slightly annoying, and it could have been remedied by a sign out front stating this policy.

I understand that Liquor stores are in constant fear of getting slapped with fines, etc. from the ABC and policies are put in place to cover themselves. But don't tell me your company policy is state law. I know the difference...

I'd be mad and would have left my beer on the counter and walked out. I have no problem with the policy, but it has to be enforced universally. Not carding the people that are suspected to be under age makes no sense. You could have been an ass and denied that you knew your wife.

[Robin Garr]

Thinking aloud about all this, I can't help wondering why underage drinking is such a major social concern that it is singled out for this remarkable level of regulation, protection and enforcement. The costs of all this can't be trivial, and in the way things work, they're ultimately paid by the consumer.

I don't think it's a great idea for teens to drink, but then, I don't think it's a great idea for them to be sent to fight and die in Iraq and Afghanistan, either.

But why DO we have such a draconian level of regulation and enforcement, to the extent that liquor businesses risk their means of existence if they slip up? I can't think of another behavior - particularly a behavior that's not even illegal if you're over 21 - that's enforced in quite this way.

I don't think it's a great idea for teens to drink, but then, I don't think it's a great idea for them to be sent to fight and die in Iraq and Afghanistan, either.

I can't think of another behavior - particularly a behavior that's not even illegal if you're over 21 - that's enforced in quite this way.

You can die for your country before you can drink or gamble in it. Never made sense to me either.

But why DO we have such a draconian level of regulation and enforcement, to the extent that liquor businesses risk their means of existence if they slip up? I can't think of another behavior - particularly a behavior that's not even illegal if you're over 21 - that's enforced in quite this way.

Lawsuits resulting from deaths of underage or intoxicated individuals via alcohol.


You don't HAVE to die for your country. But...I'm not about to derail this thread with this one.

We're puritanical at our roots (so, judgmental of others). And we love to sue people (no, really, it has to be their fault). Given the law and the litigious culture, I don't blame Liquor Barn.

What's the legal requirement for picture ID? I'm not sure the teens would have had to have some form of identification. Hence, without identification they couldn't buy. But that shouldn't mean Momma can't stop by the store with the kids and pick up whatever she wants.

If you legally are to have an ID (what 18+?) and step inside a liquor store, I don't see the problem with that establishment asking to see your ID. They can equally assume you are or are not an accomplice to another's purchase. Without ID, you can't prove your age, and, thus, can't buy, and, thus, from their perspective, shouldn't be in the store.

I'd be mad and would have left my beer on the counter and walked out.

If my wife didn't have her ID, I was going to try to leave and come back in the store 5 minutes later (sans wife).

I do think that the Liquor Barn isn't left with much choice in the matter: use discretion and risk losing their license, or play it safe and risk making a few customers a little angry. I do wish that they would have used a little more discretion, though (as they apparently can do with older customers).

For me, it basically comes down to this: beer, wine and liquor are fungible. I can get exactly what Liquor Barn is selling at numerous places in Louisville. If they're going to take measures to prevent me from handing them $100 bills, I can go somewhere else that would gladly take them.

Note that this entire conversation is about KENTUCKY law, not INDIANA law.

It now is INDIANA law that every person buying alcoholic beverages for carry-out must show ID. Period. Straight package store floorspace is 21 only. Bars and restaurants have floorplan "separations" permitting certain ages in certain areas. Grocery stores, drug strores and mini-marts are all ages BUT cannot sell cold beer to go.

Robin's right. None of it makes sense, times fifty different regulatory regimes. The drinking age should be 18 -- or one should be exempt from taxation and military service until he or she is 21.