Wearing at hat while dining

I think it's a sign of respect and friendship to not concern yourself with wether or not a person prefers to wear a hat. That is just a ridiculous social construct that has passed for a reason.

It has only passed because people have become more rude and they're no longer concerned with manners and etiquette. It has not passed because it wasn't a good thing to do.

And it's why literature such as Hamlet and Virginia Woolf's Mrs. Dalloway still resonate with so many of us. Social niceties and social conventions remain current for reasons that make sense to a lot of people because it's often what keeps us drifting into heathenish behavior, marking the difference between adults and adolescents.... Uhoh, that opens me up for suggestions of nastiness and inflexibility, I reckon. But I prefer company who pays attention to such things. It's probably why I prefer to learn how to dance rather than simply get out on a dance floor and "do my own thing." Form matters. At least it does to many of us. Especially, maybe, as we grow older.

I don't know whether anybody here has ever seen Morgan Spurlock's cable series 30 Days, but there was one episode where a fairly fundamentalist Christian man went to live with a Muslim couple for those 30 days, and there was one incident that I thought was particularly compelling about Western manners as compared to Muslim convention and manners -- a thing most of us wouldn't think twice about,... and I'm not sure I'll describe it very well. But a Muslim cleric noted the young man's habit of putting his feet up on a table or crossing his legs so that his feet were sort of very present to his companion, and the cleric noted that for Muslims, this is an affront, and that it's considered very poor "etiquette" to sit with people with your feet in their face. I thought about that, and I realized that, yeah, it's sort of obnoxious, and it's a cultural habit probably the majority of us take for granted, propping your feet up on a table when other folks are sitting across from you. But it's also strictly a contemporary Western cultural habit as well. Gary and I sort of turned to each other at the same time, and it was apparent the young Christian man was suddenly struck by it as well, and said, "Wow, that really IS obnoxious, isn't it?" And it's a thing we ourselves have done without thinking twice about it, at least in the company of people close to us.... Now, it may be one thing to do it privately, in your own home, in the company of your own family, but it really does give you pause to consider many of us don't limit it in that way. But it also gave us pause to consider and to wonder what it might mean in the company of one's own family, how it might play out in other ways, because it's sort of a graphic gesture that suggests we've over time begun to take others close to us that much for granted.... You begin to wonder in what other ways you may be doing the same thing.

It has only passed because people have become more rude and they're no longer concerned with manners and etiquette. It has not passed because it wasn't a good thing to do.

What does wearing a hat have to do with manners?

Manners are about how you treat other people. If manners are coming into play in a discussion of wearing hats, it would seem they would only apply to be critical of the person doing the judging, not the person wearing the hat.

The problem with etiquette is that "the rules" are always used to judge others. What, then, does the act of judging say about the person performing the act? Maybe it's not the other person who is in the wrong...

Bravo Matthew!

A distinction:

First there's the issue of social conventions.... And second, there's the issue of asking for opinions in a public forum.

So here, and there's probably no way to disentangle these at this point, but I'll voice my opinion, which is sort of where we started, right?

The original question was whether a particular social convention was considered reasonable or not. Okay, that's fine. But as someone noted above, surely if the question is posed, it's sort of unreasonable to howl in outrage over those opinions, yeah?

Because it begins to feel like a trap, frankly. If you want opinions, then accept them and move on. Otherwise, it begins to be pretty obvious that one is not actually asking for various opinions but for validation for one's own clearly and closely-held opinion.

At this point, Phil, my friend, it begins to look as if you posed the question simply to get some ammunition to argue with your wife about the validity of your own position on the issue. And that's fine. But to pretend you're posing the question dispassionately about it is beginning to unravel.

Phil, where's DONNA? We need Donna to engage in this with us!

I'm going to start wearing ONLY a hat to dinner.

In college, we were required to wear coats & ties to dinner. One day 200 men showed up in only coats & ties. We had hoped that would be the end of the rule, but no such luck

Awww, Greg, that's cold, man. I love Fedoras! Well, on a guy, I mean.

Personally, I find that fedora's are incredibly sexy on a woman! (in the movie or play Chicago, for example)

Awww, Greg, that's cold, man. I love Fedoras! Well, on a guy, I mean.

Personally, I find that fedora's are incredibly sexy on a woman! (in the movie or play Chicago, for example)

Especially if she's only wearing a fedora!

[Robin Garr]

For the full effect I must iron my drindl.

<pedant> dirndl </pedant>

It has only passed because people have become more rude and they're no longer concerned with manners and etiquette. It has not passed because it wasn't a good thing to do.

What does wearing a hat have to do with manners?

Manners are about how you treat other people. If manners are coming into play in a discussion of wearing hats, it would seem they would only apply to be critical of the person doing the judging, not the person wearing the hat.

The problem with etiquette is that "the rules" are always used to judge others. What, then, does the act of judging say about the person performing the act? Maybe it's not the other person who is in the wrong...

Exactly!

There is no rational reason for someone to be offended by someone wearing a hat indoors. The only explanations given so far have been a trumpeting of traditional etiquette usually accompanied by circular logic.

Question: "Why are you offended when someone wears a hat indoors?"
Answer: "Because it's disrespectful to me"
Question: "Why is it disrespectful to you?"
Answer: "Because it's offensive"
Question: "Why is it offensive?"
Answer: "Because it has always been offensive. I was taught it was offensive. I have read that it is offensive"
Question: "How did those people and books tell you it was offensive"
Answer: "They said it is rude and always has been rude"

Well, it's all so clear now. One generation passing on nonsense to another generation.

It didn't make any sense in the 1200s or whenever someone originally decided to be offended by hat-wearing indoors, and it doesn't make sense now. Even if it did make sense when the rule was originally conjured up, it definitely doesn't make sense now.

Perhaps it isn't that people have become more rude. Maybe enough time has passed that people have figured out that nonsensical, irrational "rules" of etiquette are antiquated and serve no purpose other than to give members of one class a set of rules to recognize others in their class. Anyone who doesn't know the rules is labeled as ignorant. If you know the rules and decide that they no longer apply then you're rude because you choose not to believe in the supernatural powers of civility granted from an irrational distaste of indoor hat-wearing.

Personally, I don't like wasting my time being overly concerned with etiquette that can't be explained by anything other than "it's just the way it is". The sanctity of etiquette for the sake of etiquette is lost on me.

If you're wearing a top hat in front of me in a movie theater, I'll complain.

Question: "Why is wearing a hat in a theater rude?"
Answer: "Because it obstructs the view of the movie for the person behind you"
Question: "Wow, that was easy. Can we go get a cheeseburger now?"
Answer: "Yes"

You know we're looking at this all in the wrong way. The question should be asked, "Why in the world would you want to wear a hat indoors?" The reason people wear hats is to keep off the sun, keep off the rain or keep your head warm. Obviously none of those apply when you're inside. For ladies it's slightly different because in many cases they are a fashion statement but since men generally don't care about fashion anyway the three reasons stated above are the only obvious reasons for wearing a hat indoors, unless you consider the possible reason all wearing it to piss everybody else off!

You know we're looking at this all in the wrong way. The question should be asked, "Why in the world would you want to wear a hat indoors?" The reason people wear hats is to keep off the sun, keep off the rain or keep your head warm. Obviously none of those apply when you're inside. For ladies it's slightly different because in many cases they are a fashion statement but since men generally don't care about fashion anyway the three reasons stated above are the only obvious reasons for wearing a hat indoors, unless you consider the possible reason all wearing it to piss everybody else off!

Well, from what I can gather Phil just likes the way he looks in his hats. He feels more comfortable and he feels that he looks better. That seems reasonable to me. It's a fashion thing...although I'll admit that fashion is as inherently subjective and irrational as some etiquette is.

I never wear hats myself, haha.

It has only passed because people have become more rude and they're no longer concerned with manners and etiquette. It has not passed because it wasn't a good thing to do.

What does wearing a hat have to do with manners?

Manners are about how you treat other people. If manners are coming into play in a discussion of wearing hats, it would seem they would only apply to be critical of the person doing the judging, not the person wearing the hat.

The problem with etiquette is that "the rules" are always used to judge others. What, then, does the act of judging say about the person performing the act? Maybe it's not the other person who is in the wrong...

Exactly!

There is no rational reason for someone to be offended by someone wearing a hat indoors. The only explanations given so far have been a trumpeting of traditional etiquette usually accompanied by circular logic.

Question: "Why are you offended when someone wears a hat indoors?"
Answer: "Because it's disrespectful to me"
Question: "Why is it disrespectful to you?"
Answer: "Because it's offensive"
Question: "Why is it offensive?"
Answer: "Because it has always been offensive. I was taught it was offensive. I have read that it is offensive"
Question: "How did those people and books tell you it was offensive"
Answer: "They said it is rude and always has been rude"

Well, it's all so clear now. One generation passing on nonsense to another generation.

It didn't make any sense in the 1200s or whenever someone originally decided to be offended by hat-wearing indoors, and it doesn't make sense now. Even if it did make sense when the rule was originally conjured up, it definitely doesn't make sense now.

Perhaps it isn't that people have become more rude. Maybe enough time has passed that people have figured out that nonsensical, irrational "rules" of etiquette are antiquated and serve no purpose other than to give members of one class a set of rules to recognize others in their class. Anyone who doesn't know the rules is labeled as ignorant. If you know the rules and decide that they no longer apply then you're rude because you choose not to believe in the supernatural powers of civility granted from an irrational distaste of indoor hat-wearing.

Personally, I don't like wasting my time being overly concerned with etiquette that can't be explained by anything other than "it's just the way it is". The sanctity of etiquette for the sake of etiquette is lost on me.

If you're wearing a top hat in front of me in a movie theater, I'll complain.

Question: "Why is wearing a hat in a theater rude?"
Answer: "Because it obstructs the view of the movie for the person behind you"
Question: "Wow, that was easy. Can we go get a cheeseburger now?"
Answer: "Yes"

this is just a silly thing to say.
i just finished rereading this entire thread because i couldnt believe that it had become important enough to gain 7 pages of momentum.
i noticed the trend that, by and large, those who are opposed to hatdining have attempted to share their insights/thoughts on why they choose such a stance. and why they deem their views 'in proper etiquette'.
while, conversely, those who are in favor have been, by and large, snide, malicious, manipulative of other people's statements and adoptive of an obvious 'im gonna do what i wanna do regardless...' type of attitude.
and that is not something that i just concocted. its simple reading comprehension.
whether one wears a hat, or a tutu, or a bunny suit really doesnt matter to me or affect my life.
i just wanted to point out that after taking a step back and reading everyones posts and how they conduct their opinions from a wider view ...
it becomes incredibly clear to me that i would rather embrace an antiquated, unimportant, meaningless tradition while genuinely respecting other people and having them respect me than say 'to hell with your stupid ways' just so i could bicker for the sake of being stubborn.
i will not cut off my nose to spite my own face.
and in no way is what 'i' choose to do in order to show someone else respect 'a bad thing'.

also, it is ABSURD to say that manners/etiquette are a vehicle used to divde classes.
i will show you respect and leave it at that.