Help West Sixth Brewing against lawsuit

Now I may use a bunch of colorful language (bald-faced, whopper, etc), but I fail to see how that alters what should be obvious to everyone.

I fault no one for using colorful language, although in this instance, as so often in life, "obvious" purely exists in the eye of the beer holder.

I'm quite content to shadow James T. Kirk in this discussion and refrain from Spock worship, because prattling incessantly about "logic" obscures the fact that had the logic of the moment been accepted at the point of impact, there'd be no craft beer revolution in the first place. Logic said there was no market, and that folks were content with tasteless liquid white bread.

Being an active participant in this game, as opposed to being a pundit standing on the outside and looking in, requires being passionate, taking risks, and doing illogical things pretty much every single day. One punches, and is punched in return. One falls down, gets back up, and jumps back into the fray.

Did Magic Hat do the same in the beginning? Almost certainly, but then it chose a ticket out of my game and went over to the side of the vandals, where it pursues shelf space tactics injurious to the likes of West 6th, NABC and countless others. Consequently, for the moment, I'm content to provide the password, slip into the Alamo, and stand with the besieged.

And, in fact, I care very little whether my reaction is logical. As close to the grassroots as possible is where I want to be, and I know where that particular location is, as it pertains to this case.

Tell you what, Dan: You resist telling me what it's like here, in my business, where you are not, and I'll resist telling you how it is in Germany, where you don't want to be -- because I'm not there, and I don't really know, and at least I'll own up and admit it.

Prosit.

They told a big lie. If you can show how this wasn't a lie, have at it.

The burden of proof is on the accuser Dan. That's Law and Order 101 I think. You have yet to show any proof to support your claim. Point out the lie Dan! Not obliquely but specifically.

While I'm probably wasting my time here, I'll try to address your accusation by presuming the offending passage. If this is not it, then tell us which it is.

The following statement was taken from a post on West Sixth's Facebook page. It is from May 21st.

“In fact, we tried to reach out to them individually to see if there was any way to resolve the amicably, but to no surprise, no one ever called us back.”

This statement seems to refer to an attempt to call Magic Hat directly. You could jump to the conclusion that this was the only attempt at communications between the two but why would you? It is followed a few sentences down with another statement.

“We think it’s bad business to roll over. After all, we’ve spent a year defending our brand, and we’ve heard from tons of folks how much they love our logo.”

My interpretation is that they have been defending themselves against this claim for a year. I would conclude that some form of communication was involved here other than phone calls.

This is all followed up and confirmed by posted letters that indicate there was significant communications between the two and does not support your claim that West Sixth ever tried to convince us otherwise.

If you are basing your whole claim on one isolated sentence taken out of context and are saying this caused you to believe that West Sixth was trying to convince us that there had been no communications between the two parties then your assertions have about as much merit as Magic Hat's. None!

If there is something more or different then I invite you to point it out. Really, just telling us over and over that IT IS SO, will not carry the day for you.

Shane, you and I both have our biases. We can argue back and forth about the many instances of W6's communications and whether they are lies, blatant lies, half-truths, mischaracterizations, lies of omission, (or the unvarnished truth if you like). But in the end it's up to a judge to decide. W6 is facing a very serious defamation lawsuit and I'd imagine MH's lawyers won't try to walk into court with only "one single sentence taken out of context". I'm not well versed in the law, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather re-marry my ex-wife than be in W6's shoes in front of a real judge in a real court.

There's a ton of craft beer people out there who see it just like I do on beeradvocate, beerpulse, reddit, and W6's own website. It's noteworthy that a lot of these folks are passionate people in the craft beer industry, not outsiders like me, so clearly W6 hasn't convinced everyone in the craft beer world of the righteousness of their cause. In fact, they've turned a lot of people off.

Also, when it comes to the initial trademark dispute I still think it's hard to say who might prevail. But MH needs to prove a mere likelihood that the logos may cause confusion among consumers. They will no doubt introduce things like this into evidence:

http://louisvillebeer.com/blog/2011/10/05/695/

I don't know who John King and Joel Halbleib are, but presumably they're local craft beer consumers and fans and their immediate impression from W6's product launch two years ago was an association with Magic Hat's logo. That looks like honest impression given two years before the ****storm erupted. That's the kind of thing that makes me not like W6's chances in court on both trademark and defamation. Anyway, we'll see if it gets as far as a courtroom.

Dan, when you express yourself as you just did, I find nothing to take issue with. I don't pretend to know what will happen when this all plays out.

I do find it fascinating and will watch it play out till the end. Cheers!

Dan seems to be focusing on the who's right and who's wrong angle of this story, but I get a completely different impression. It looks as if West Sixth is just drumming up the whole big guy v. little guy saga for the free publicity at this point since they seem to be willing to change or alter their logo.

The frustrating thing to me is the fact that Magic Hat #9 has any brand value at all, but that's a different argument.

I just saw a commercial for Macy's that touted the "Got Your Six" program for veterans. The Logo is a 6 with a star in it. Maybe the lawyers better sharpen their pencils again.

I don't even drink beer, but I can tell the difference between a 6 and a 9, even when they are the same color. I wonder what Magic Hat thinks of the intelligence of their customers by assuming they can't do that.

I love both brews.....but I do feel West Sixth knew what they were doing with this logo design. I won't sign the petition because of said belief. In a perfect world, Magic Hat would fund the "re-branding" of the West Sixth. I doubt that will happen, but it would end all discussion. If I had a vote, I'd say West Sixth is the guilty party.

I love both brews.....but I do feel West Sixth knew what they were doing with this logo design. I won't sign the petition because of said belief. In a perfect world, Magic Hat would fund the "re-branding" of the West Sixth. I doubt that will happen, but it would end all discussion. If I had a vote, I'd say West Sixth is the guilty party.

You love both brews do you? Can you even describe these two beers?

You do feel that West Sixth knew what they were doing with this logo design. WTF does that mean? They knew what they were doing by designing a logo that represents their location and provides an unmistakable identity for their IPA,

Or are you saying that they intentionally designed a logo that would be confused with a beer that is so unlike theirs that no one with taste buds could confuse them. I mean really are you saying that they intentionally wanted people to confuse their beer with one that is so unremarkable that the brewer themselves says that is "not quite pale?"

What is West Sixth guilty of exactly?

Well I'm not Rob, but surprise, surprise... I have an opinion. I think West Sixth is guilty of (take your choice) being lazy, not doing due diligence, or just trying to do things on the cheap. I posted a link above to a couple of local guys who saw the distinct similarity immediately. Like on the very day West Sixth launched. For fun I just googled them and they could be charitably described as actual players in the local craft scene. I'm not calling anyone out. I'm just pointing out that if two local craft industry players saw the similarity immediately, one might expect the principals at West Sixth (or their designers) to also have made note of the obvious similarity. That's simple due diligence that any business owner should do.

So you have either two choices. Either the guys at West Sixth are true craft guys, and hence should have immediately recognized the potential for conflict that other, local craft players recognized, or....they're not really craft guys but rather money guys jumping on the bandwagen. If the former, I have no sympathy for them if they get their butts sued off. If the latter I still question why other craft players and consumers seem to find in them "kindred spirits".

In any case I still think if other craft players noticed immediately, West Sixth should have noticed immediately. Buy the ticket, take the ride.

It's fine if you want to continue to justify your own opinion by saying “Look, someone else thinks so too!” That's really all you got.

This will be settled by a professional mediator and/or possibly some experts in the area of trademark infringement. The opinions of craft beer drinkers or people in the craft brew industry carry the same weight here. None, unless they are directly involved in the case.

People can spot similarities and differences between the two logos quite easily. The trademark infringement, if it goes to court and comes down to expert testimony, will hinge on the likely hood that the two logos will be confused for each other. That's according to a friend who is a patent attorney.

Unlike yourself and others who have rushed to judgement and been so vocal in declaring what to you seems obvious, he sees nothing obvious about the outcome of this case.

Well I'm not Rob, but surprise, surprise... I have an opinion. I think West Sixth is guilty of (take your choice) being lazy, not doing due diligence, or just trying to do things on the cheap.

You aren't Rob, but just like him, you spout your supposition based opinions with great conviction.

You said - I think West Sixth is guilty of (take your choice) being lazy, not doing due diligence, or just trying to do things on the cheap.

You “think” West Sixth is guilty of being lazy.

Yet you actually have no idea how much effort they put into this. They paid a professional design company who, in a published interview, talked at length about the efforts put into the design.

You said - I think West Sixth is guilty of not doing due diligence.

Yet you base this on what? They have been accused by a company that apparently has a litigious history, which has been pointed out, and whose claim has not been substantiated by anyone who matters.

You said - I think West Sixth is guilty of “just doing things on the cheap.”

Yet you haven't the slightest idea how much they paid to design the logos or defend themselves so far in this case. If you did know, what makes you qualified to judge it cheap or not?

You apparently “think” a lot of things and when asked to produce evidence backing your thoughts, the best you can do is “Well some other people think so too!”

Well here's what I think. Normal consumers will not be confused by these two logos with any significant frequency.

We may find out some more detail about who did what to who after this thing gets resolved but it's just as likely that the full details of this will not be revealed any time soon.

This issue will get settled by competent authority and they won't rely on the "Well other people think so too" litmus test no matter how tried and tested that may be!

Shane I have opinions based on logic, common sense, and a couple of decades analyzing businesses both large and small (albeit not legal analyses). I've defended my opinions using logical arguments. The reference to two industry professionals who saw an immediate similarity is a perfect example. If someone else noticed it immediately, so should have West Sixth. They were either lazy about it.... or just decided to roll the dice on whether they'd get sued later. Either way they have gotten themselves into a jam which could have been avoided.

I do refer to the hundreds, if not thousands of other people who share those opinions on forums other than LHB as a response to those here who think I'm "quirky". Just because the herd only runs in one direction on LHB doesn't mean a broader spectrum of the public sees it so (see the lively discussions among the craft beer fans on beeradvocate for example).

Anyway, I'm not sure how great my conviction is. But I'm not the one getting his pants sued off. I'm just sitting in the cheap seats with a bag of popcorn watching the spectacle.

Shane I have opinions based on logic, common sense, and a couple of decades analyzing businesses both large and small (albeit not legal analyses). I've defended my opinions using logical arguments. The reference to two industry professionals who saw an immediate similarity is a perfect example. If someone else noticed it immediately, so should have West Sixth. They were either lazy about it.... or just decided to roll the dice on whether they'd get sued later. Either way they have gotten themselves into a jam which could have been avoided.

I do refer to the hundreds, if not thousands of other people who share those opinions on forums other than LHB as a response to those here who think I'm "quirky". Just because the herd only runs in one direction on LHB doesn't mean a broader spectrum of the public sees it so (see the lively discussions among the craft beer fans on beeradvocate for example).

Anyway, I'm not sure how great my conviction is. But I'm not the one getting his pants sued off. I'm just sitting in the cheap seats with a bag of popcorn watching the spectacle.

By your own logic, the nearly 18,000 people who have signed West Sixth's petition trump your "hundreds, if not thousands of other people who share those opinions on forums other than LHB."

You continue to belittle those who do not think like you on LHB by calling them a "herd" yet you've merely chosen to join a different herd haven't you? You offer no individual insights at all, you're just bleating from behind the hindquarters of others no more qualified than you.

I seriously don't care that you think what you do. But when you offer your thoughts as if they are well-founded, I can't help but point out that the "logic, common sense, and experience you base your claims on are really just "hear-say, supposition, and personal bias."

I too am watching this play out with great interest. I will continue to point out when people like you, Rob and other prophets of piddling idiocracy proclaim their word to the herd. Cheers Dan!

Shane, I don't purport that "X" number of internet opinions trumps "Y" number of other internet opinions. That would be silly. However, the opinions here are fairly one-sided and I only mention the multitude of other people who share my own opinion as a response to those here who suggest ole Dan is coming completely out of left field or, as Robin put it, "quirky". Obviously this is a very divisive issue in the craft beer world.

I will continue to point out when people like you, Rob and other prophets of piddling idiocracy proclaim their word to the herd. Cheers Dan!

I think the word you're grasping for is "idiocy"

Shane, I don't purport that "X" number of internet opinions trumps "Y" number of other internet opinions. That would be silly. However, the opinions here are fairly one-sided and I only mention the multitude of other people who share my own opinion as a response to those here who suggest ole Dan is coming completely out of left field or, as Robin put it, "quirky". Obviously this is a very divisive issue in the craft beer world.

I will continue to point out when people like you, Rob and other prophets of piddling idiocracy proclaim their word to the herd. Cheers Dan!

I think the word you're grasping for is "idiocy"

I just knew you would think that. You made me happy this morning Dan. Get a dictionary!

I will continue to point out when people like you, Rob and other prophets of piddling idiocracy proclaim their word to the herd. Cheers Dan!

I think the word you're grasping for is "idiocy"

Grasping? More like a firm, iron-like grip.

Probably time for J Dylan to make an appearance.