Roger Baylor/ABusch

Shawn, thank you for your thoughts on codes of conduct and permissible discussion topics.

I disagree that a person who presents intentionally inflammatory statements is immune to criticism. If anything, I think Roger wants to promote discussion.

That said, after Robin's stern-but-loving admonishment, I agreed that that personal attacks are unnecessary.

If you would like to defend Roger's delivery rather than the man himself, I would be interested to hear it and discuss that, as I am always interested by differing viewpoints.

You are welcome Dan.

And to clarify, I did not say that anyone should be "immune to criticism." I do however advocate a reasonable discussion as opposed to name calling. Criticism, in my humble opinion, is much more productive when constructive.

You asked for it, but first we have to be specific when discussing RB's rhetorical ability.

The advertisement, which appears to have riled so many feathers will be the focus of this brief analysis. Brief and to the point without even touching on a single word used in the advertisement.

This particular piece of media is directed at a very specific audience. Unless you were an attendee of the Great Taste of the Midwest in Madison, Wisconsin the ad was not really intended for you. Roger's target audience in this case (in my opinion) would have been the slightly inebriated crowd of serious beer lovers (this event sells out every year, has a limited number of tickets and is acclaimed as the best beer event east of the Mississippi River).
The demographic involved tends to have a pretty good sense of humor and they are regularly exposed to provocative advertisements. My basis for this line of argument is the many examples of provocative media employed by breweries across the country and several years of experience selling beer in the retail and restaurant environment. (Stone - "It's not too expensive, you're too cheap", Schmaltz/Hebrew "the chosen beer", Flying Dog "in heat wheat", Dogfish Head "golden shower imperial pilsner" - there are countless examples like this throughout the beer business)
Given the target audience, Roger's ad probably didn't even stand out amid the other gloriously provocative ads in the program.

The advertisement is perfectly fitting for the intended audience.

Thanks
Shawn

It's a cliche. Personal gentleman. Internet asshole.

Of course, his scribblings were even too much for LEO. They also subscribe completely to the whole Republicans=Fascist orthodoxy...

No no no

First of all, why Roger is no longer with LEO is anybody's guess and nobody's business. Having worked at LEO for many years I VERY seriously doubt it was because they couldn't tolerate his postings. If I had to guess (and I'm only guessing) I'd say it was because LEO wanted to get the big name brewers like Miller or AB to advertise and they (AB and/or Miller) refused to advertise with them as long as an independant brewer was writing for LEO. Because that's how it works in advertising.

Second ... all of us have come off sounding like an assh*** at least once or twice on the forum simply because writing isn't always our best skill. We think we're writing with a "wink" in our tone but it comes off ugly or way too snotty. Passion often comes off as something else entirely. We need to all cut each other some slack, especially those people we've never met.

As for the people we have met and still think they are butts, that's different. Maybe we could start a list....
(I'm just kidding Robin. )

... If you would like to defend Roger's delivery rather than the man himself, I would be interested to hear it and discuss that, as I am always interested by differing viewpoints.

...
The advertisement, which appears to have riled so many feathers will be the focus of this brief analysis. Brief and to the point without even touching on a single word used in the advertisement.

This particular piece of media is directed at a very specific audience. Unless you were an attendee of the Great Taste of the Midwest in Madison, Wisconsin the ad was not really intended for you. Roger's target audience in this case (in my opinion) would have been the slightly inebriated crowd of serious beer lovers (this event sells out every year, has a limited number of tickets and is acclaimed as the best beer event east of the Mississippi River).
...

Thanks
Shawn

Thanks for this. It is interesting, but I don't think it is a complete explanation.

Roger always goes on about integrity. How does a pandering advertisement jive with integrity? The answer is: it doesn't. I don't think Roger is pandering with this ad. It's only pandering if it runs counter to his actual intentions.

Roger admitted himself that this ad had the added purpose as a Rorschach Test. What's the purpose of that, if it's not for his amusement. This is tantamount to an admission of trolling. The whole ad is meant as provocation with Roger in the role of provocateur.

It is a role he seems born to. This is what's going on:

Hey! All my fellow travelers, lets tweak some Republican noses, and then laugh at them when they notice.

You can see this exact dynamic if you follow the link and read a comment that Roger has added himself.

Ah, but not everyone agrees:

John Hardesty also commented on New Albanian Brewing Company's link.

John wrote: "It is unusual to see a small company that favors political ideology over customers. You have lost this customer."

I asked him what he would have thought had I denigrated Barack Obama. I suspect he'd be recommending us to his friends, LOL

Maybe it is a shtick. How am I to know? I only know Roger by his writings and postings. And by now the pattern is set and never varies. This is the image that he wishes to present. He is not just an advocate of craft beer. He either doesn't have the desire or the ability to promote craft beer without tearing something else down. He get's a potential customer to his company's Web Site, then mocks him behind his back at another one. Assholely or adolescent? You be the judge.

Maybe it is a shtick. How am I to know? I only know Roger by his writings and postings

That's very true, Steve, but thanks for always reading

And by now the pattern is set and never varies. This is the image that he wishes to present. He is not just an advocate of craft beer. He either doesn't have the desire or the ability to promote craft beer without tearing something else down. He get's a potential customer to his company's Web Site, then mocks him behind his back at another one. Assholely or adolescent? You be the judge.

Considering Steve Shade’s original, rather narrowly focused post about major multinational corporations engaging in a frolicsome bit of mutual marketing masturbation to tout the Stupor Bore, it has been instructive to peek into the cauldron while on the road back from Madison, and watch as the thread has evolved.

Those of you with long memories will recall Steve H and I embarking on this exchange of differing ideas about three years ago: http://forums.louisvillehotbytes.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3641

So, it's unlikely either of us will be indulging in transformative epiphanies any time soon. That's the way it goes, and I know that for every Steve H, there are dozens of others who actually know me, actually know how things are, and actually get it (as dispensed).

Among these folks are those who have offered testimony here over the past few days as to what I've been out there doing for the last 25 years: Educating about beer. To suggest that I have been unable to do this without "tearing down" various other ideas and/or persons is simply laughable. Of course, I have my own style, shtick or otherwise.

Shouldn't we all?

Literally, and at the risk of blowing my own horn, there are generations of local craft beer drinkers with whom I've come into contact and have positively influenced -- just like any other teacher. I see them everywhere, in my pubs and elsewhere, and when we chat, drink and laugh together, I'm proud as hell. The integrity's in the results, Steve, and the results can be seen everywhere. I'm not the only beer educator, but I'm satisfied with the way I've hoed my row over the years. Results like these could never have been achieved merely by "tearing down." In fact, I'm always building up, but you wouldn't know that, because by your own admission, you ignore the evidence.

I appreciate each of you taking the time to explain all this to Steve, as you've done so eloquently, and even if he has little interest in listening, because you know that while nowadays my job is to sell more NABC beers, the point of advocacy for me has always been in the larger context of the good beer biz as a whole. I tout the segment, and rising tides lift all the boats. Craft beer has achieved wonderful things from a starting point of less than zero, to where we are now. The future looks good. Drinking together, we've reclaimed good beer for America, and this is a noble and happy fact.

In closing, to quote the character of Sweet John Smith in William T. Vollmann’s novel, Argall, “I am as I am, and so I will be.” Good night, and good beer.

Maybe it is a shtick. How am I to know? I only know Roger by his writings and postings

That's very true, Steve, but thanks for always reading

I pretty much read all the threads in this forum and the All About Louisville forum. And sometimes I follow links.

Considering Steve Shade’s original, rather narrowly focused post about major multinational corporations engaging in a frolicsome bit of mutual marketing masturbation to tout the Stupor Bore, it has been instructive to peek into the cauldron while on the road back from Madison, and watch as the thread has evolved.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that the thread has gotten off topic? You are the one that originally posted the link to your advertisement that prompted my involvement.

Those of you with long memories will recall Steve H and I embarking on this exchange of differing ideas about three years ago: http://forums.louisvillehotbytes.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3641

So, it's unlikely either of us will be indulging in transformative epiphanies any time soon. That's the way it goes, and I know that for every Steve H, there are dozens of others who actually know me, actually know how things are, and actually get it (as dispensed).

This is not the whole story. After awhile, the thought grew on me that your attitude really was more of a marketing shtick. This was in part due to a Beer and Wine Dinner at the Windsor (RIP). You were supposed to be a speaker to introduce your Russian Imperial Stout, excellent BTW. I was ready and willing to hear it from the horse's ass , so to speak; but alas, another engagement arose and you couldn't make it.

After, this my Sweetie and I made a trip to BSBH at some point to give it a go. I must report that your Elector Ale was very good, but the brasied beef short ribs were a little tepid. I would've returned but my Sweetie wasn't smitten, and most of my other friends like Bud Lite. So, I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

You had to dig back pretty far to find that other thread. Just saying.

Among these folks are those who have offered testimony here over the past few days as to what I've been out there doing for the last 25 years: Educating about beer.

Of course none offered a defense of your writings. They just said you are a great guy in person as a balance to your polemics.

To suggest that I have been unable to do this without "tearing down" various other ideas and/or persons is simply laughable. Of course, I have my own style, shtick or otherwise.

Shouldn't we all?

And yet you still tear things down. Do you think that Mr. Hardesty is more amenable to an education from you at this point? And how many more like him are you prepared to throw away?

Literally, and at the risk of blowing my own horn, there are generations of local craft beer drinkers with whom I've come into contact and have positively influenced -- just like any other teacher.

Good for you. What about those Mitch Daniels and Scott Walker voters? Are they worth bothering with? Or are they just fodder for your jokes.

I see them everywhere, in my pubs and elsewhere, and when we chat, drink and laugh together, I'm proud as hell. The integrity's in the results, Steve, and the results can be seen everywhere.

I never questioned your integrity. You should parse out my comments a little finer. I do question your judgment, and your willingness to assume the worst about certain folks.

I'm not the only beer educator, but I'm satisfied with the way I've hoed my row over the years. Results like these could never have been achieved merely by "tearing down." In fact, I'm always building up, but you wouldn't know that, because by your own admission, you ignore the evidence.

Where did I say that you were only tearing down? You have built some fine establishments, it's just that your polemics make it clear that all are not welcome. And that is a "tearing down".

I appreciate each of you taking the time to explain all this to Steve, as you've done so eloquently, and even if he has little interest in listening, because you know that while nowadays my job is to sell more NABC beers, the point of advocacy for me has always been in the larger context of the good beer biz as a whole. I tout the segment, and rising tides lift all the boats. Craft beer has achieved wonderful things from a starting point of less than zero, to where we are now. The future looks good. Drinking together, we've reclaimed good beer for America, and this is a noble and happy fact.

Obviously, it speaks well for you that you have good friends. And we agree that the promotion of craft beer is a worthy goal. So, I'll concede that I just may not grok Roger A Baylor.

I'm ready to listen. Please, please explain how your advertisement is a worthy means towards that worthly goal of promoting craft beer.

The original:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

The original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

Love it. BTW, I wrote a thousand or so words in response to Steve's question, and need to edit it down to something approachable.

The original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

Love it. BTW, I wrote a thousand or so words in response to Steve's question, and need to edit it down to something approachable.

I just thought better than my original comment in this post

Toward the goal of sincere engagement, semi-snarkiness has been removed.

First, I realize the irony of my post as I have just added to this waste of a thread.

Come on. A SIX page thread on one LHB registered user loosely based on opinions previously expressed? Really?

Besides, the original post and linked article has about as much in common with said member as the price of eggs in Korea has to do with Volkswagens......only because, I'm sure, eggs have indeed been transported via VW's.

Either I'm missing something or this is the longest useless thread in LHB forum history.

Rant off.

(Roger Baylor, in spite of all that thinks you should post within the confines of some consensus, please continue the posting of your opinions.)

The original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwcKwGS7OSQ

Love it. BTW, I wrote a thousand or so words in response to Steve's question, and need to edit it down to something approachable.

Just a simple explanation of how your Rorschach Test of an advertisement and mocking folks who object, like Mr. John Hardesty, furthers the promotion of craft beer would be sufficient.

You should be able to do it in a paragraph.

OK, we get it, you dont like the ad

i think Its brilliant

many other people fall on both sides or dont care at all

Roger Baylor is a standout in the community, a succesful businessman, a staunch advocate of quality vs the pandering of inferior goods, and (like it or not) REALLY, REALLY good at what he does

why would he owe an explanation about anything or to anyone about anything, and whats it going to accomplish even if he did?

Im ALL for good-spirited debate, opposing views, and the opportunity to hash out different perspectives.

this is none of those.

OK, we get it, you dont like the ad

i think Its brilliant

many other people fall on both sides or dont care at all

Roger Baylor is a standout in the community, a succesful businessman, a staunch advocate of quality vs the pandering of inferior goods, and (like it or not) REALLY, REALLY good at what he does

why would he owe an explanation about anything or to anyone about anything, and whats it going to accomplish even if he did?

Im ALL for good-spirited debate, opposing views, and the opportunity to hash out different perspectives.

this is none of those.

As you can go back and see, I thought better of this my recent post. Good job capturing it for posterity.

And no, he doesn't owe me anything. We agree on that. I suspect he is responding for his own reasons. Besides, if he didn't want any commentary on this ad, then he shouldn't have linked it from this thread. I would have never known about it otherwise.

Cheers.

First, I realize the irony of my post as I have just added to this waste of a thread.

Come on. A SIX page thread on one LHB registered user loosely based on opinions previously expressed? Really?

Besides, the original post and linked article has about as much in common with said member as the price of eggs in Korea has to do with Volkswagens......only because, I'm sure, eggs have indeed been transported via VW's.

Either I'm missing something or this is the longest useless thread in LHB forum history.

Rant off.

(Roger Baylor, in spite of all that thinks you should post within the confines of some consensus, please continue the posting of your opinions.)

My apologies if you felt compelled to read this thread. I understand that it's allure is limited. May I submit the mitigating factor that I did not start it?

And just an FYI....

This is currently a 6 page thread. Roger posted his ad on page 4, which is where I responded.

So technically, this thread is only half my fault at a maximum. I will admit to 25%.

My apologies if you felt compelled to read this thread. I understand that it's allure is limited. May I submit the mitigating factor that I did not start it?

mmmkay. I'm not sure what you're getting at, but;

A. Apologies are not necessary. B. I don't know why you find it necessary to point out that you didn't start this thread. I am just opining in general.

My apologies if you felt compelled to read this thread. I understand that it's allure is limited. May I submit the mitigating factor that I did not start it?

mmmkay. I'm not sure what you're getting at, but;

A. Apologies are not necessary. B. I don't know why you find it necessary to point out that you didn't start this thread. I am just opining in general.

Not really getting at anything. I meant to put a at the end.

But I don't mind apologizing to those who feel like this thread is a imposition.