What if...

Jeez. If you don't like the forum, don't read it. Don't post. If you don't like a restaurant, don't go. Sorry if I choose not to participate on this debate (although I guess I am now), but enough is enough. I have many friends and colleagues who have jumped in here, and at the end if the day all that will exist are hurt feelings and resentment. I have an opinion, but I am gonna keep it to myself. I'll share it with friends over beer. It's a public forum, so say what you will. But remember, it's a public forum. Y'all need to relax. It's just food. Everyone on the planet eats.

Threads like this are the type that get me irked in a good and bad way.
For one - It's a good healthy debate about serious food and restaurant topics.
I've been known to bitch about the lack of serious constructive criticism here... and feel that most times (the economic state most of us have to deal with the days adds to this) the majority of the "restaurant" conversation here seems to gravitate towards the low rung of the food "totem pole".

For me that's both hard and discouraging.
I've worked my ass off to cook at the level I do now...

It's hard to explain in a menu what is going on and try to make your clientèle "get" what you're trying to offer.

I'm not 100% positive, but I think I probably could take claim to at least one of Michael's "chef quotes" regarding LHB.

I used to be extremely active with the forums.
Very active.

And I read them now only a few times a week - as opposed to multiple times a day.

Why you ask?
Because, as a professional...
Nowadays, the commentary here carries little to no interest to me.
Stephen's initial post is so spot on...

Other chefs or serious foodies talking about serious food.
Wow! What a thought!
I just read Anthony's post (and the following thread) about Chilean sea bass...
Hands down the most interesting and thought provoking thread I've read on LHB in a long time… The best in at least a year honestly.

I know that Anthony and I both have been put on "LHB probation" by our wives and peers before.
Why?
Because we read it... get bored with the lack of interest ANYTHING.
Then we read something that that is remotely pertinent (or directed at something we’re passionate about); we read it and get pissed off. (it depends on the topic of course…)


Quite frankly, I demand so much better for both the chefs, guests and critics in this town.

I'm sick of so many "clone" restaurants in town serving the same food that would be be entirely appropriate on 5 competing restaurants menus. What makes one place better than the other? Other than lack of imagination?

I'm sick of "turn and burn" (independent) restaurants that value speed, economy and huge portions of sub-par (and often mis-handled product)... over proper technique (or at least better technique), filling but not stuffing portions, and slinging food with no respect for the product itself.

It's a real unfortunate battle for most independent operators.
The dollar is king... even more so than usual. I understand it, but it’s very possible and financially feasible to execute such a food plan. You just need a staff that is driven, focused and gets behind the vision of the restaurant. (and to do it right!)

Doing 30 covers, doing it “right”, versus doing 75 covers and cutting corners?
As sad as it is to weigh out "proper" over "cutting corners"... It can make or break most businesses.
And it only creates continued complacency and lack of care or regard for most places in town. Money over doing it better than the guy down the street. Do you get them to come back because you merely give them better value for their dollar? Or because YOU ARE BETTER at what you do? Sadly, the first option usually take precedent.


I can count on just over one hand restaurants in town I know don't cut corners and try to give their guests a legitimate HONEST food experience - well prepared, with thought, no shortcuts, no bullshit.

We have two culinary schools in Louisville.
Do you have any idea how many of these kids leave school and go to restaurants that show them nothing by improper technique and shortcuts? Most of them.
There's such an influx of students being poured out, that the job pool is saturated with poor/inexperienced candidates who think they know it all... and then take jobs, learn shortcuts/BS and take it is culinary fact/law.


My commentary here is a real good example of why I don't post much anymore.
I get heated.
Very heated.
Not so much about reviews, public opinion, whetever…
But about demanding better.
I don’t demand it just for myself but for my fellow chefs, for our guests… for everyone.
I know we have talent. But We’re never going to stack up, nor is anyone going to give a damn about us until we demand better.

I can post this (I’ve done similar before)... vent, demand better for our dining public, challenge other chefs... etc.
What does it usually amount to?

Emails from other chefs saying: "I wish I could say that, but I'd alienate my clientele and if they read that they'd hate me", or maybe it'd lead to a staunch argument from the foodies telling me I'm misguided from their agenda and missing the point. Trust me. You either eat out for hobby, enjoyment or as a professional critic. Fine. Cool. But does that mean you understand the business? Maybe. Probably not.
Not unless you live or breathe it every day. That's a perfect example of why I don't follow politics. I don't live it, breathe it every day. So I never feel like I know enough to make a properly informed opinion.


I'm gonna probably get flack for this statement but here it is...

Louisville is a seriously awesome restaurant city... especially in terms of volume of restaurants to size, and variety of restaurants/cuisines to it size... But it has some huge gaps and faults that could be combated.

In the upscale/fine dining market (for the most part) - the category that most people in the first and second tier dining markets take notice of -... we fall way short. Every restaurant seems to be a clone.
There's a priority placed over 1.) quantity and speed over 2.)quality and care. The restaurants guilty of scenario one... honestly most of the times don't know better. The restaurants practicing scenario two... Well, are few and far between. And unfortunately, are usually too caught up in trying to maintain their own personal level of excellence to worry about anyone else's operation... or to care... or to demand better... for Louisville dining as a whole.

I really honestly wish it was possible to publicly point fingers.
But the ramifications of outing your peers? To call them on how they operate their business?
Seriously…

Those chefs/operators who know what I'm talking about do.
Those who don't... still remain clueless.
And others – they choose to take a blind eye and continue to do the same food they've been doing for the past 15 years and think they're at the "top of their game" and "hot shit", the "new cool thing".



Final Caveat:

Louisville will be and will always remain a 3rd tier dining market when our diners demand quantity and simplicity/familiarity over quality and creativity and the chefs/operators continue to satiate these guys by refusing to challenge them, or take bigger risks cuisine wise.

How many restaurants have challenged our diners to think at the level of first and second tier dining markets in the past 10 years? off the top of my head... Seviche, Asiatique, Proof on Main, 732 Social, 610 Magnolia, Basa, Corbett's, the Oakroom... There's surely a few others, but not a ton... these are the places that in "the big food news" people give a shit about. Not about some "good" restaurant on Bardstown Road.

If we want to demand respect at that (a national) level... we have to demand that level of interest and challenge our diners at that level.

Otherwise... well, we're still gonna always be third tier. No matter how many "good" restaurants we have... what makes this place noteworthy? better? memorable? worth a detour? worth telling your friends in NYC or LA about? those are the places that transcend the market as a whole.

That is a long post and has passion. However, to be a top tier establishment any any industry means that your costs are higher (best product, atmosphere, etc) and your prices are higher. So my guess would be that there are only so many top tier restaurants because that is what the market dictates.

Also, remember that the spots that you mention do have competition from many newer higher end restaurant chains that many out of town business people may choose because of familiarity and making a safe choice. So passion can be good but frustration is fruitless

Yes, it was a long post. He almost lost me in the middle but he brought it back around and made his point.

Ethan... bravo! You probably will get a lot of backlash from that post, but it needed to be said and you said it well. Nice work.

...and if you pay close attention to the original draft, you can see that he signed it with his own blood.

This is what I am talking about. We need more of it, not less! And we all have a responsibility to ensure that this EXACT thing happens.

Truth be told, Ethan's BVS dinner was the single best meal I have eaten in this city. Passion translates to the plate, promise. Now if we can get this to translate to these hallowed pages...

(Get me?)


Let me tell you what you missed- Butterscotch Porkbelly. Worth the price of admission. This was a dish that we talk about to each other. SNAP! This kinda thing has chefs dancing around, preening like some hens in the yard!

the majority of the "restaurant" conversation here seems to gravitate towards the low rung of the food "totem pole".

For the most part, this forum is a middle class demo. We can't afford to dine at Louisville's finest everytime we eat out. We eat tacos, pizza, sandwiches, burgers, and fried chicken and we like to talk about who has the best. When someone eats at a fine restaurant, we talk about that also. I see no problems with people talking about "low rung" food.

Seviche, Asiatique, Proof on Main, 732 Social, 610 Magnolia, Basa, Corbett's, the Oakroom... There's surely a few others, but not a ton... these are the places that in "the big food news" people give a shit about. Not about some "good" restaurant on Bardstown Road.

I would love to eat at these places everytime I go out, I just can't afford it.

Other chefs or serious foodies talking about serious food.
Wow! What a thought!

I say, bring it on. We non industy folks love to hear what industry folks are doing and thinking. We might not always 100% agree, but we want to hear it.

Ethan, your post was fantastic and well worth the time it took to read it. I understand your frustration. I think the same frustration is being felt in other industries beside the restaurant industry. Money and bigger profits seem to always win out over quality and then people bitch about the quality! The public needs to learn you can have one or the other, but quality for cheap is not a reality, at least not in these economic times.

I think the nation at large is just now seeing what these abysmal economic times are doing to us as a whole. It's more than just losing a job or having to change jobs. It's more than just not eating out as often as we did before or tightening our belts a notch or two. There is a socio change in the community that we will both benefit from and suffer from for years to come. Sometimes I think we've settled for so much "cheaply made in China" crap because it was cheap that we no longer recognize quality. But then, because of economic stress, cheap is all we can afford so the quality of the world around us keeps diminishing. Once upon a time I could say "I have little, but what I DO have is excellent!" Not anymore.

To no one in particular.

Panties in a wad.
Panties in a wad.
Feelin' kinda Blue cause your panties in a wad.
'Tats on your arms, toque turned sideways.
Panties in a wad.
Panties in a wad
Call yoself a cool Chef who gets no respect.
Postin' on the forum wit-cho panties in a wad.

<sigh>...I tried to stay out of this one...I really-really did Ya'll carry on, I gots me some yard work to do.

I completely agree with what Ethan is saying. 100%.

However, I have 1 final point and then I'll get off my soap box.

Social media sites like LHB can help level the playing field for local or small businesses - even individuals. They can provide market reach that was previously only possible through things like TV and radio. And they can do it for little to no cost.

If you were opening a new restaurant in 1980... how would you go about letting people know? Word of mouth? Radio or TV? Newspaper? National chains have huge marketing budgets to reach people. Small/independent businesses don't.

Today.. through LHB and other online communication medium, people know about you before you even open. Often as soon as you start doing demolition. You can reach thousands and thousands of potential customers with a single... FREE post.

And Ethan, people like you participating in this forum, and others like it, can help change the market. To challenge it. You can directly and immediately interact with your customers, potential customers and industry peers. Sure.. some people abuse or misuse it, but you can't let the bad out-weight the good. Too much good happens here to let a few errand posts send you running. Some people may not like what you say but I think you'll find your passion is shared by many. More people will support your goals than will criticize them. Yes.. saying what you think.. speaking your opinion.. can open you up to criticism. So what? Share it anyway.

Even if your passion is Tennessee fainting goat's dressed up as women posing in a field of clover. Don't laugh... you know there is a newsgroup for that somewhere.

Sunday night I had the perfect example of a business that embraced social media and is thriving because of it. I went to The Comfy Cow. Again (again, again). It was packed. People wearing their Comfy Cow T-shirts, huge bowls of ice cream and treats in front of them. Big smiles on their faces, talking, socializing, having a good time. Had it not been for the internet and in particular this forum, I would have never heard of The Comfy Cow. Through their web page, e-mail distribution list and facebook page, I know what specials they are running and what flavors they have. I know that Amanda was their 1000th fb fan and they named a sundae after her! Once I get there, I am treated about as well as one can be treated and get a product second to none so that when I get that next e-mail or facebook update... I can't wait to go back. I can be sad that I wasn't that 1000th fan who got to design their own sundae and share it with everybody. They are passionate about what they do and they share that passion.

I don't think you could do a better job of opening a business, spreading the news and then taking advantage of the buzz.

A lot of chef/owners could learn from their example.

BTW - sorry for my long posts. The benefits and capabilities of technology is something I am passionate about. Can you tell?

My .02, and no need to rehash what's been said by others on both sides of the issue.

However, I want to point out something that LHB provides that I would have to think, generally, is good for the industry.

There are multiple online venues on which a consumer can share their experiences, good or bad, with restaurants. Besides LHB and the afor-mentioned Facebook and other social media sites, one could comment on a review posted online at the Courier, or Velocity, or similar online media sites.

Outside of this realm, however, are the reviews and comments found at places like Urban Spoon, Trip Advisor, City Search, and Yahoo Travel. These are the sites viewed by out of town visitors trying to find a place to eat, as well as locals, to an extent. What these sites are not conducive to, though, is the ability for other consumer to weigh in, and for an owner or chef to respond to criticism (or comment on praise).

LHB provides this service, and this makes it very different from the rest. If I go to Urban Spoon and post something negative, it stays there in perpetuity and provides little opportunity for discussion, debate, elaboration, or clarification. If I post it here, an owner and chef can tell their side of the story, and other consumers can weigh in with different or similar experiences. Further, the consumers that read, participate, or lurk at LHB are, like it or not, probably among the most passionate in the city about what and where they eat. If I'm a restaurant, this is the crowd I want, because if I give someone with enough passion about food that they take the time to participate here (i.e., 6 pages of comments on this thread alone) a good experience, then I probably just gained a customer for life. I've also gained a customer for life that is passionate enough about my restaurant that they'll post something here, and tell all their friends, and drag their wife there repeatedly, et al. You really can't buy that kind of loyalty or free advertising.

Yes, negative, and perhaps unjustified, comments appear here on occasion, but so what? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, 80%+ of the comments and reviews that appear here are positive, to the point of gushing at times. Of the 20% that are negative, I'd venture to say that 80%+ of those comments are helpful, well-reasoned, and fair. Thus, I'd guess that of all comments posted here, somewhere along the lines of 4% are negative in a way that is unfair or unreasonable.

The benefits of LHB to both consumers and those in the industry FAR outweight any perceived harm. Finally, the fact that Louisville has so many people passionate about their food is the very reason that so many restaurants in this city succeed, and the very reason why such a site as LHB exists nowhere else in the country, especially in a market this size. LHB is certainly a thing to be embraced, in my opinion. Nothing is perfect, but Robin's baby is a worthwhile endeavor that provides an important service in this community.

In short, don't bite the hand that feeds you, no pun intended.

Even if your passion is Tennessee fainting goat's dressed up as women posing in a field of clover. Don't laugh... you know there is a newsgroup for that somewhere.

Internet rule #34

Well. I've sat back with much amusement reading this thread the past couple of days.
I thought I'd just weigh in a little. I think Ethan and Chris M's posts are spot on from both a professionals and consumers point of view.
All I have to say is, I don't feel what is posted on this forum is the "end all, be all" to an establishments success or failure.

.

In response to several posts yesterday, I whole-heartedly agree that things should be done correctly the first time.

Things happen. Every chef, waiter, manger, etc. will tell you that something out of their control will happen, on occasion. Best laid plans and all that crap. And I'd be willing to bet my measly life savings that every chef that has sunk any chunk of money into their own dream (read: restaurant) would want to know about that problem before you walk out the door and run to the nearest computer to vent.

I leave you with this thought: when a restaurant name is brought up (or anything outside of the restaurant world for that matter), do you remember the positive or do you remember the negative? I remember the negative first, then the positive.

(I swear I'll try to make this brief this time...)

My previous post was largely inspired by Stephen's initial post.
Yeah, I did get a little off topic in my tangent.
That was kind of my point.
As a chef, being brutally honest, voicing what aggravates or pleases you about all sorts of things local-dining related... quite frankly, most wouldn't do it.
Making a compelling argument or voicing your personal opinion can have it's pros and cons (obviously).

The fact is - and alluding to Stephen's original point - few professionals participate here with anything much more than a brief quip or coming to defense of something (which they generally are passionate about).

Honestly, the most productive professionally spawned topics in a long time have been Stephen's "series" or idea topics... and Anthony's recent sea bass post.

It takes some risk to post your thoughts and opinion.
Frankly the "sea bass challenge" is the most ballsy post I've seen a chef make in recent memory.
You risk ostracizing and/or alienating your clientele, your vendors, and fellow chefs.
It was a very calculated risk to take a stand and not just give people what they want and be responsible. I recommend checking out videos of chef Dan Barber on YouTube on sustainability.
It will really change the way you look at and think about food. I think Anthony probably saw a few of the ones I posted on Facebook. Which to me wouldn't make me surprised at why he's being so proactive.

I applaud Anthony for taking a stance on being a more proactive and responsible chef, regardless of the risks.
(Believe me, sea bass is almost always more cost effective than sablefish… even though sablefish is generally less expensive to procure.)



Luxury ingredients don't always make food better.
But higher product cost doesn’t always translate to “expensive”

I’m remind of a quote by renowned Catalan chef Ferran Adria (an amazing quote in it’s reference to simplicity… a stark contrast to his avant garde cuisine he’s known for):

“I'd rather have a fresh mackeral than a two day old lobster”

Wouldn’t you?


Sure, for quality product, you pay more.
But it's entirely possible to buy cheaper cuts of meats (belly, skirt, shank, etc) that are A+ quality than more desirable cuts (filet, rib eye, tenderloin, etc.) of lesser quality... and are still cheaper to both purchase wholesale, and thus can be sold for less.
The cheaper cuts of meat though... they usually take time to cook, a kitchen who really gives a damn about preparing them carefully, and understands that you can make something beautiful (often better) with lesser ingredients and truly showcasing your craft.
Just about anyone can grill or sear a steak. It takes someone with real talent to take odds and ends and make them sublime. That's why there's such a boom in chef-driven taco (and other food) trucks around the country. Places like the Momofuku restaurants in NYC pretty much base their existence on this notion (and that’s how they make their money).

Trust me, I can't afford to eat at hardly anywhere these days.
As a professional though, every establishment represents (even if just a little bit) the restaurant community as a whole. There are always places that will refuse to settle for mediocrity and demand better for themselves and their customers. And for every one of those, there are a dozen that don't value this and continue to make mediocrity the norm.

Finally:
LHB is a good... no a great thing for our dining community. (Especially as noted earlier: for the free PR and word of mouth surrounding such discussion).
It's always reminded me as a sort of eGullet-lite. More localized and on a much more personal scale.
It's a good thing.

Ethan,

Speaking only for myself, not the LHB community as a whole, I am now more eager to eat at Seviche and sample the desserts at Oakroom than before. People want to see the fire that drives chefs, they want to see the passion, and it can be missed when dining out.

It's hard to explain in a menu what is going on and try to make your clientèle "get" what you're trying to offer.

Most people on this forum want to know/learn more about their food, where it comes from, how it is made, but that is just not possible by dining out alone. We need/want chefs to express and teach on this forum. Keep posting.