What if...

Tara, sorry I wasn't clearer. Chef Michael Hargrove was the first poster to give an approving nod to a double standard. He complained about someone else's hearsay info that was posted, then posted negative hearsay himself. You then agreed with Chef Hargrove...so you, IMO, were the second poster to adhere to the double-standard.

"I share the same love of food that you all do, even if my opinion differs on certain things." This, and the fact that you have joined this forum does make you a member of this community. Your level of involvement is up to you. We don't always have to agree, but the forum, and its fine moderator do a pretty good job of keeping this civil.

I for one would certainly give your place a try...just like I will the BP regardless of the 1 slightly negative and many many positive comments about that restaurant.

Dave Nelson, as a member of the service industry, please expound on your comment. I would like to know why you don't post frequently? Just curious, as I am not a frequent poster either... but definitely not for any particular reason. I truly enjoy LHB...both the indutry peeps and "civilians."

DD

The best intentions and responses can be misread courtesy of the Internet.

Just because you so enthralled with my elitism (I'll have to show you my redneck roots one day), I guess I should point out that misreading began with the invention of communication. The Internet is just another venue where such misreading occurs. [/elitism]

On a serious note, Stephen has rightfully pointed out the dangers the Internet does present because of the range of influence internet material can have. Given the way Robin asks the inmates to run the asylum, I'd have to think that this site should be commended, not vilified, for the way it conducts business. Sure there are ways to improve and reflection that needs to occur in regards to how we interact with different populations, but, the beauty of this site is that people put a name (and often a face) with whatever complaints and praise they may have. So while the danger is there, this site does not suffer from the issues present on other anonymous forum sites (such as the comments left on the CJ's site).

On a final serious note, I appreciate what you have posted Tara and it has given me "stuff" to think about.

[Robin Garr]

"Tossed" salad?

Sorry... I know that was an absolute groaner.

Rough as a Cobb, too! Caesar!

I'll tell you, I'm a pretty decent Chef......and I once launched a whole bunch of veggies off the roof on my restaurant with a 3-man slingshot....not really cooking but damn creative! Does that count?

"Tossed" salad?

Sorry... I know that was an absolute groaner.

Awww... hehe!

I hate to break it to the industry people on here, but what you are complaining about has nothing to do with this forum or with how Robin runs it (and IMO, he runs it very well).

The ability for an individual to quickly and readily post opinions on anything is now a part of our culture. Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, Buzz, LinkedIn,Youtube etc. etc. make is possible for me to post pictures and analysis of my meal... as I eat it. I can let the entire world know course by course how I enjoyed or didn't enjoy my meal, and nothing the business owner does can stop me.

Everybody is a critique, everybody is a publisher and everybody has an audience. You now have to treat EVERY customer as if they are writing a review for the local paper, because you never know... they may have a higher readership.

If you want to be in business you have to be ready for that, and as much as chef's are reluctant to admit it, they are business men/women. They are also artists. Art is meant to me critiqued. Some people will enjoy their art. Some will not. All will voice their opinions, and because of technology they will voice it to potentially thousands of people. It's nothing that hasn't happened throughout history, but technology had compressed the time line from individual experience to shared experience.

People will share. Get used to it. It's a done deal. In fact, it will only get worse. If they don't do it here, they will do it someplace else. Done. Over. Move on.

To not embrace social media, even in the restaurant industry, is to risk becoming obsolete. The risk of harming your business is much lower than the opportunity to help it, provided (and here, to me, is the big key) that you run a good business. That you provide good service and in this case, good food.

Bad businesses can't hide in a connected world. I promise you, before the sun sets on your first day of business, somebody has shared their experiences with your business on some social media site, and from there it will get passed around to hundred and maybe thousands of potential customers. It's the way things work now.

If you are open, honest, customer oriented and provide good product, then you should have nothing to worry about on this forum or any other. At least here you can see what people post. I've posted many food reviews to my facebook account for my hundreds of friends to see, and since I'm not friends with any of the chefs they have no idea it's happening. I've posted pictures, comments, I know for a fact that dozens of my friends have eaten at places simply because I said it was good. Also, dozens have stayed away because I said it was bad.

None of which appeared on this forum.

You call people who post negative reviews without talking to the owner cowards? I call chefs/owners who are afraid to come online and see what people have to say about them and to open themselves up to honest criticism and (more often then not) praise cowards.

Maybe they should worry more about pleasing their customers and less about keeping those who are unhappy quiet. If you are complaining about this forum, then you must have something to hide. You must not have a handle on everything going on in your business. If you did... you'd already know what people are going to say before they say it. I realize that you can't please everyone, but as an example...

I stopped going to Toast over a year ago because of their seating policy. I've steering dozens of people away because of that policy. Did I tell the owner? Nope. Did they have any idea I had been doing that? Nope. Am I part of some conspiracy to shut them down? Nope. Do I wish them ill? Nope. Am I a coward? Hell no. They chose to implement that policy, they chose to accept the consequences. I'm sure they have good reason to do it. At least now that it's in the open the owner can address it, change it, or accept that some people won't like it and so it will go.

There is a reason they have the saying that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. Chef's seem to think that they should always be given a second chance. An opportunity to "fix" things. I have an idea. How about you get it right the first time. Hire good people. Train them well. Empower them to fix problems themselves so you don't have to do it for them.

Be a good business person, or hire someone who is to run the front of the house.

Novel concept that.

I know local restaurants who do that. Those are the places I frequent. Good food isn't enough.

One final point. It's not my job to tell you when you screwed up. It's your job to notice it and fix it before I get out the door, because if I have to TELL YOU how to do your job.... then what the hell am I paying you for?

One final point. It's not my job to tell you when you screwed up. It's your job to notice it and fix it before I get out the door, because if I have to TELL YOU how to do your job.... then what the hell am I paying you for?

Exactly.

I have every right to patronize or not patronize a restaurant for whatever reasons I choose.

And the idea that it's my responsibility to improve the quality of someone else's products or services is ridiculous. Posting an opinion or asking questions about a restaurant, whether the proprietor sees that as a good or bad thing, is what forums like this are for. If I never questioned or commented on the quality of a restaurant before first reporting it to management every place would get stellar ratings.

And giving them a chance to fix the situation is like grading a test and then telling the student what questions were answered incorrectly and allowing them to make corrections before giving them a grade. That's not to say that the final grade can't be improved upon but that doesn;t invalidate the initial grade.

Chef Llewellen felt enthused to come here and post pics of his newest side of prize-winning pork?
Chef Lamas felt encouraged to tell us about his latest trip to God-knows-where S America?
Chef Looi thought it fun to share his experiences in (geeze does he ever stop?)
Chef Gehrhardt posted notes on his cooking classes?
Joy Perrine let us in on her alchemy behind her yearly nogs?
Chef Paley gave us the breakdown on his method of charcuterie?
David Lange would feel comfortable talking about free-market coffees?
Josh Durr would be culled into writing a piece about various distillation practices?
Madi could feel compelled into writing a piece about retaining staff?

They'd love to share. You just have to let them!

With all due respect and admiration...

I 100% understand a chef/owner not wanting to blast a customer for a negative review, but "we" can't be blamed for chefs not sharing their knowledge and stories with us. How could anything negative come of a chef talking about any of the topics you have listed? You post your stories and ideas all the time and get nothing but great feedback. Marsha also posts great, sometimes even controversial, pieces that are always well received. She has a small link to Winston's and yet posts freely.

I'll tell you, I'm a pretty decent Chef......and I once launched a whole bunch of veggies off the roof on my restaurant with a 3-man slingshot....not really cooking but damn creative! Does that count?

Sorry, but I don't understand.

I hate to break it to the industry people on here, but what you are complaining about has nothing to do with this forum or with how Robin runs it (and IMO, he runs it very well).

The ability for an individual to quickly and readily post opinions on anything is now a part of our culture. Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, Buzz, LinkedIn,Youtube etc. etc. make is possible for me to post pictures and analysis of my meal... as I eat it. I can let the entire world know course by course how I enjoyed or didn't enjoy my meal, and nothing the business owner does can stop me.

Everybody is a critique, everybody is a publisher and everybody has an audience. You now have to treat EVERY customer as if they are writing a review for the local paper, because you never know... they may have a higher readership.

If you want to be in business you have to be ready for that, and as much as chef's are reluctant to admit it, they are business men/women. They are also artists. Art is meant to me critiqued. Some people will enjoy their art. Some will not. All will voice their opinions, and because of technology they will voice it to potentially thousands of people. It's nothing that hasn't happened throughout history, but technology had compressed the time line from individual experience to shared experience.

People will share. Get used to it. It's a done deal. In fact, it will only get worse. If they don't do it here, they will do it someplace else. Done. Over. Move on.

To not embrace social media, even in the restaurant industry, is to risk becoming obsolete. The risk of harming your business is much lower than the opportunity to help it, provided (and here, to me, is the big key) that you run a good business. That you provide good service and in this case, good food.

Bad businesses can't hide in a connected world. I promise you, before the sun sets on your first day of business, somebody has shared their experiences with your business on some social media site, and from there it will get passed around to hundred and maybe thousands of potential customers. It's the way things work now.

If you are open, honest, customer oriented and provide good product, then you should have nothing to worry about on this forum or any other. At least here you can see what people post. I've posted many food reviews to my facebook account for my hundreds of friends to see, and since I'm not friends with any of the chefs they have no idea it's happening. I've posted pictures, comments, I know for a fact that dozens of my friends have eaten at places simply because I said it was good. Also, dozens have stayed away because I said it was bad.

None of which appeared on this forum.

You call people who post negative reviews without talking to the owner cowards? I call chefs/owners who are afraid to come online and see what people have to say about them and to open themselves up to honest criticism and (more often then not) praise cowards.

Maybe they should worry more about pleasing their customers and less about keeping those who are unhappy quiet. If you are complaining about this forum, then you must have something to hide. You must not have a handle on everything going on in your business. If you did... you'd already know what people are going to say before they say it. I realize that you can't please everyone, but as an example...

I stopped going to Toast over a year ago because of their seating policy. I've steering dozens of people away because of that policy. Did I tell the owner? Nope. Did they have any idea I had been doing that? Nope. Am I part of some conspiracy to shut them down? Nope. Do I wish them ill? Nope. Am I a coward? Hell no. They chose to implement that policy, they chose to accept the consequences. I'm sure they have good reason to do it. At least now that it's in the open the owner can address it, change it, or accept that some people won't like it and so it will go.

There is a reason they have the saying that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. Chef's seem to think that they should always be given a second chance. An opportunity to "fix" things. I have an idea. How about you get it right the first time. Hire good people. Train them well. Empower them to fix problems themselves so you don't have to do it for them.

Be a good business person, or hire someone who is to run the front of the house.

Novel concept that.

I know local restaurants who do that. Those are the places I frequent. Good food isn't enough.

One final point. It's not my job to tell you when you screwed up. It's your job to notice it and fix it before I get out the door, because if I have to TELL YOU how to do your job.... then what the hell am I paying you for?

Yes!!!

You, a LHB member, told people not to go to Toast, and I still have to wait to get in. What is wrong with this world? Haven't they read, LHB is destroying the local dining scene. Hotbytes makes far more places than it breaks (if any).

You call people who post negative reviews without talking to the owner cowards? I call chefs/owners who are afraid to come online and see what people have to say about them and to open themselves up to honest criticism and (more often then not) praise cowards.

I'd agree it's questionable, but chefs/owners are supposed to respond to an issue not even mentioned to them in the first place?

I review websites for my job and have looked at thousands (tens of thousands?) of sites and believe that this forum is unique...or at least very rare. I have seen attempts to do something similar but none have the local community involvement that I see here.

It is pretty obvious that politically the forum tends to lean left and I don't think that posters always recognize that their opinions are not shared by all or don't seem to recognize that opinions from the other end of the spectrum are equally valid. Despite that, I think that Robin usually does a good job of allowing both sides to air their views and keeps the discussions civil.

Restaurants/chefs may not like the criticism that can be posted here but I've noticed that complaints are often followed by other postings of positive experiences. Also, most complainers are asked if they made the restaurant aware of the problem while they were there or just waited and complained here. Perhaps this will help teach people to try to resolve issues while they are at the restaurant. Some people (me) don't like conflict but if we have been assured here that the managers/restaurant owners really do want to hear about problems from the customers when we are still in the restaurant and they have an opportunity to try to make our dining experience better, we will be more likely to do something besides go home and rant online.

You call people who post negative reviews without talking to the owner cowards? I call chefs/owners who are afraid to come online and see what people have to say about them and to open themselves up to honest criticism and (more often then not) praise cowards.

I'd agree it's questionable, but chefs/owners are supposed to respond to an issue not even mentioned to them in the first place?

A good chef/owner with a good staff should know there is a problem long before me (an untrained consumer) has any clue. Most of the problems I've seen are simple carelessness or lack of concern and typically the result of poor hiring and/or poor training.

I'm not saying problems shouldn't occur. I'm saying that in a well run business, the problem never makes it to the customer, or if it does it is preceded (not followed) by an apology.

"I'm sorry sir, the kitchen is really backed up and it will be 10 more minutes on your order"
"I'm sorry sir, the chef over cooked your steak and he's making you a new one. It will be right out."
"I'm sorry sir, but we're a little behind tonight and your table won't be ready for another 15 minutes. Can we get you something from the bar while you wait?"

Not so hard is it?

I eat at Seviche because there are rarely problems, and when there are problems I get proactive responses like the ones above. Is it intentional or does Anthony just attract good people? No idea. But it works.

Hire good people. Train them well. Trust them. Empower them. Be observant. Own your mistakes.

Pretty simple. If you can't do something that basic right, then you deserve whatever criticism you get in whatever forum you get it.

I'll tell you, I'm a pretty decent Chef......and I once launched a whole bunch of veggies off the roof on my restaurant with a 3-man slingshot....not really cooking but damn creative! Does that count?

"Tossed" salad?

Sorry... I know that was an absolute groaner.

Nope.....don't toss salad....just trying to lighten the mood on this thread....I give up!

Helluva discussion, people. Perhaps the best here in a while. All I can add is that I've always tried to be open and candid, and let it land where it may. Some times I look like a genius, other times I have pie dripping down my forehead. None of us get it right 100% of the time, but we all try, and there's really not much more to say than that. I say, bring on the social media, and I'll take my chances.

Bravo.

Well said, Roger.

Great little discussion we have going on here.

I love LHB for a multitude of reasons and it is the only "web forum" in which i actively participate.

I would wager that many owners/managers/chefs are just too busy to post here as frequently as they would like to about all of the interesting things they have going on in their culinary worlds.

I can see why many owners/managers/chefs are reluctant to post here and on occasion i bite my internet tongue, although not very often i admit. Occasionally a critical post will arise about a particular nights performance that may not have gone as well as either guest or owner would have liked and now the most prominent foodie community in Louisville gets to read all about it.
Yet, in many instances the forum members defend said establishment before a chef/owner even has the opportunity to speak up. Case in point; when the Charlestown Pizza Company was criticized a couple years ago it was the forum members that spoke up in our defense.

I also think that Chris M hit the nail on the head with many of his comments.

Social networking tools empower everyone in the community: guests, owners, chefs, servers, etc.

And I believe it is our job in the industry to ANTICIPATE the guests needs and to get it right the first time. We as owners/chefs must be aware of what our customers think before they walk out the door (I know it doesn't always happen, but it is a goal to strive towards).

Customers also have the responsibility to be forgiving if mistakes are made and the establishment makes every effort to correct said mistake.

Yet, we also have to be aware that we can not please everyone; the incredibly difficult customer may not be pleased in every instance and we must accept this. I find that the critical posts by difficult customers are usually transparent to most foodies and rarely hold any value concerning the quality of food or service at a restaurant.

LHB is unique, at least from my view, because it is a relatively well mannered discussion forum that is not anonymous. The name calling and ridiculousness that i often read in other forums is unheard of at LHB.

Thanks
Shawn