How well do restaurant patios and smoking coexist?

One more time, clearer terms and without exclamations points and caps lock.

Smoking has bad social consequences, like drinking has bad social consequences. You suffer drinking in public. You are intolerant of smoking. Both occur casually in public places. There are laws addressing where to smoke and drink both. You are unsatisfied with only one of those. You therefore seek to eliminate the practice in your presence based solely on your personal preference when it is the express preference of the user and the establishment owner that they may do so. You then wish to assert your will on these two consenting parties agreement when you neither own, nor consume. I'm sure some will try to argue this point, but let's just say I catch the gist of it here.

If it is such a big issue for you personally why not just refuse to patronize the places that allow the thing you detest on their private property? This seems a reasonable thing to do to show your objection, and can have sufficient impact if applied correctly to alter the behavior you dislike. If you wish for smokers and restaurant owners to change with no compromise of your own and no skin in the game, then that would be outside the bounds of what is the basis of a free society, in my estimation.

Let's pretend you live in a free country, the question I am driving at in all of this would be: If two lawful, willing parties consent, on what grounds can you object?

This is me trying not to avoid any argumentum ad passiones or the like, I've seen throughout the thread, but especially not get the eyeball roll again.

Let's pretend you live in a free country, the question I am driving at in all of this would be: If two lawful, willing parties consent, on what grounds can you object?
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If two lawful, willing parties consent, I don't object. (For almost anything between consenting parties for that matter.) but A. Non-smoking restaurant employees were to be taken into consideration.
And
B. Unfortunately smoke seldom (if ever) stays between two consenting parties . I end up consuming it whether I want to or not.

I am ok with smoking rooms with filters. I'd be ok with cigar bars or restaurants whose designated purpose is for smoking because I have the option of not going there.

And C. Smoking has more than just bad social consequences. Foul language may have bad social consequences. Socks with sandals could have bad social consequences. Justin Bieber videos on a bar screen is a very nasty ordeal. None have health risks except smoking. (And the occasional bout of nausea with the Bieber music.) but no one has the right to to expose others to any health risks against their will.

I find it odd you are willing to tolerate cancerous smoke but a few caps and an eye roll set you on edge. I have omitted them in this post in consideration of you however.

If two lawful, willing parties consent, I don't object. (For almost anything between consenting parties for that matter.) but A. Non-smoking restaurant employees were to be taken into consideration.

Cool, I'm down with the consent. We are on the same page. I just don't see employees as unwilling participants. Non-consenting employees are called slaves. That's illegal. They sought out the job.

B. Unfortunately smoke seldom (if ever) stays between two consenting parties . I end up consuming it whether I want to or not.

Being a non-consenting patron should only happen once in an environment you're uncomfortable with. See your statement below:

I am ok with smoking rooms with filters. I'd be ok with cigar bars or restaurants whose designated purpose is for smoking because I have the option of not going there.

Cool, keep this up and maybe the place will change it's policies. They have their bottom line and possible clientele to consider, and you could be one, and clearly want to be one.

And C. Smoking has more than just bad social consequences...but no one has the right to to expose others to any health risks against their will.

And here is where we missed on the previous exchange, I totally agree. They don't have that right, but you are going to these places, being harmed in your estimation, and then paying them for the pleasure. Alcohol has more health risks than just drunk driving. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16047538
Sugar intake has health risks. http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionso ... act-sheet/
Trans fats, processed foods, pharmaceuticals, thousands of things people consume can be dangerous to them, and by extension those around them. We are all hurt when someone has made poor choices. Now these may not have the immediate environmental irritants that smoking has, and I grant you it stinks, is annoying, and can possibly cause poor health in others. The question remains why are you insisting on being in places where you can be harmed by them?

I find it odd you are willing to tolerate cancerous smoke but a few caps and an eye roll set you on edge. I have omitted them in this post in consideration of you however.

I'm not tolerating smoke per se, I'm tolerating people's choice to smoke, and others choice to allow it and be around it. To my mind people have the right to do things they want even if it harms them. As long as they are aware of the risks, it's fine in my book. I'm asking you why you are intolerant of their right to do so. I see no valid grounds for objections in the above, although I understand your passion about the matter, and I'm willing to be wrong about this stuff, I just haven't been swayed yet.

But thanks for no eyeball rolls. I know it is tough to hear arguments you've no doubt heard before and have dismissed. I sympathize, I just ask you to consider these with an open mind. I'll give you a for reading all my BS this far.

I DO tolerate peoples' choice to smoke. I DON'T tolerate your second hand smoke.
If you (meaning anyone else other than myself or those I am responsible for) want to dye your hair green, pierce every 1/4 inch of your body, run bamboo shoots up your fingernails, or, let's say less absurd scenarios, if you want to marry someone of the same sex, or renounce your religion, or have an abortion, or commit suicide or even a slow suicide with cigarettes, please be my guest. It is your body, your decision. You MAY NOT make those decisions for me, or those that I am responsible for (my kids for instance) . My body my decision. Second hand smoke is invasive and does just that. I honestly do not know how much more clear I can be.

I read you loud and clear. I take it to mean you won't be on the Barrett Bar patio any time soon. That's where consenting adults smoke, and you aren't into that, and you don't want to rain on the mutual relationship that the owners and clientele have forged. Good on you.

[Robin Garr]

the Barrett Bar patio ... where consenting adults smoke ...

I attended a party there once and was pleasantly surprised to find that the ventilation (or something) makes it reasonably possible for smokers and non to coexist.

I haven't compared to the extreme by use of an analogy in a quite a while, let's go there now...

Let's say a customer of your establishment choses to pour water on the floor of your establishment. So if I slip and fall in a puddle of water on your floor, even though I chose to be there, you are liable for being negligent in providing a safe place for me to be, even if the other customer exercised their right to do what they wanted by pouring out the water.

Why does that analogy not extend to second hand smoke?


And while we're at it, let's make it a two-fer:

As for employees, what about coal miners? They seek out those jobs because they need to pay bills, yet they are also able to sue like crazy when their lungs give out or the damn mine collapses.

Why does that analogy not extend to the employee whose health is jeopardized by a smoke-filled place of employment?


I have no problem with people who insist on smoking and killing themselves in the process. Have at it. But why not just keep it at home where you bother no one? Why force it on the world? Oh, that's right, its a horrible, addiction that is both physical and mental. By all means, I'd like a side order of that. (I'm happy to supply the eye rolls)

Just when this fight was starting to die down a bit...

I think Adriel is spot on. This is not a health issue. This is an issue created by whiners who feel they should be able to walk through life without being inconvenienced by their fellow man.

So a little cigarette smoke is turning you off of enjoying copious amounts of food and alcohol. Waaaah! You can be a fat alcoholic but God forbid you light up a cigarette.

It's easy to point at second hand smoke and blame it as a health hazard. But the truth is that you just DON'T LIKE IT. Well tough shit. The world shouldn't have to adapt to your delicate sensibilities. If you don't like it, don't go to the places that allow it. That was the point I made before the smoking ban went into effect. But apparently business owners shouldn't be allowed to make their own policies and the customers shouldn't be allowed to make a personal choice. The government just had to step in and save the whiners who felt their rights were being infringed upon.

You didn't want smokers indoors so you got a ban to kick them out. Now they're outside and even that's not good enough. How far does this have to go before you realize the sense of entitlement in our society is getting out of control?

And as far as employee rights go... you ever heard of an occupational hazard? If you don't want to work in a smoky bar, don't take a job there. If you don't want to be pawed by men, don't be a stripper. If you're scared of heights, you probably shouldn't seek employment as a sky diving instructor.

And don't get me wrong... there are things I hate too. Kids for example. So I make a point to avoid places like Chuck E Cheese and Gattiland. I don't go there and wonder why there are so many screaming kids and awful parents.

It is ridiculous in this day and age that I can go to a bar and kill myself with booze but light a cigarette and you're a pariah.

Ding ding ding ding ding!
We have a winner! The most unbelievably revealing post ever.

[Robin Garr]

most unbelievably revealing post ever.

I think Adriel is spot on. This is not a health issue. This is an issue created by whiners who feel they should be able to walk through life without being inconvenienced by their fellow man.

For this statement to be totally correct it needs to be amended to state "sniveling whiners"

And don't get me wrong... there are things I hate too. Kids for example. So I make a point to avoid places like Chuck E Cheese and Gattiland. I don't go there and wonder why there are so many screaming kids and awful parents.

Ahhhhhhhhh......Hello fellow traveler.

...and our second runner up is...

I think Adriel is spot on. This is not a health issue. This is an issue created by whiners who feel they should be able to walk through life without being inconvenienced by their fellow man.

As someone who actually has breathing problems that are exacerbated by your decision to poison both your lungs and the air around you, THIS IS A HEALTH ISSUE. You may not have a problem with screwing up your perfectly functional lungs, but as someone who doesn't have perfectly functional lungs and who has had breathing problems from birth (not caused by my desire to be a "fat alcoholic"), your right to give yourself a slow death by cancer or emphysema is superseded by my right to not die from a severe asthma attack.

I didn't like it then, so I went out of my way to limit my exposure to it via non-smoking sections and well-ventilated places. If there's smoking outside, I'll be sitting inside. Even passing through the cloud of smoke by every bar and restaurant doorway can cause me issues, so don't tell me it's not a legitimate issue of health and only a matter of taste, you troll. If you want to smoke while you drink and eat, then I suggest you get take-out and go back to your cave.

Even passing through the cloud of smoke by every bar and restaurant doorway can cause me issues, so don't tell me it's not a legitimate issue of health and only a matter of taste, you troll. If you want to smoke while you drink and eat, then I suggest you get take-out and go back to your cave.

Trolls live under bridges.

And your attitude makes my point. While I commend you for attempting to avoid situations that might inflame your condition, your prevailing desire is to see the world adapt to your needs. Congratulations, you're a true American!