"A restaurant without any decent beer choices ... "

[Robin Garr]

Actually Roger, I find the analogy to be somewhat effective in describing your annoying "Beer Snob" persona...i.e. Your pretentious death-to-chains-you're-not-sh**-if you-don't-drink-craft-beer diatribes have become as predictable as any bowel movement. I DO think the analogy could have been improved on had he somehow worked in something about death-to-chains-except-those-who-sell-my-beer but that's just my take. See, it's like this Roger...Some people just don't WANT to drink "craft beer"...and all of the "education" in the world is not going to change their minds. They just don't LIKE it...and all of your pontificating is not going to change their minds....and get this Roger, that doesn't make them any less intelligent than you are and (thankfully) it doesn't make their business any less important to the majority of restaurants/taverns/bars, etc. Furthermore, there are those people (and I'll include myself in this category), who after years of listening to all of this pompous-frothing-at-the-mouth crap, start to push back...In my case I drink lots of craft beer...and (tip of the hat) I also drink a fair amount of good ol' Union Made American Beer...I just won't drink YOUR beer. Not because it's not good beer...Hell I think Pierce does a great job...I just won't drink your beer because DELETED BY FORUM HOST.

Speaking of forum members who think its funny to adopt wacky personas, Steve, you might want to reconsider yours. It's not amusing anyone around here, and it's not contributing to the forum.

If you went into one of your favorite sports bars and acted in public the way you do in the forum, would you expect that to be well received?

The term 'craft beer movement' makes it sound like there is important work being done by those 'in the know' about beer. I'm asserting that this movement is turning more people off of craft beer than drawing them to it. At least on this website

No essay here Gary just a link to a website. http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/beer-sales
I'm sure you'll find some rational to disregard the numbers here in any case. In spite of your assertions, its is apparent that more people are drinking craft beer than ever. These are possibly your customers. I wonder at your rancor towards craft beer. Or is it just aimed at craft beer lovers who are not loath to proclaim their preference?

What's the beer list like at the restaurant you work at Gary? Do you serve Big Macs there? I've believe millions if not billions of those are sold every year to people who like them. Or at least people who want to pay a minimal price for their food. Sure a Big Mac gets the job done as does a 50 cent can of Budweiser.

If that's the extent of your aim - fill a hole or get drunk at the cheapest price possible then Big Macs and Budweiser make sense. Carry on.

Just don't expect people who participate on a foodie forum (this website) to respect that attitude.

The funny thing is, I had McDs for lunch today. And I never get upset when people slag on it for being the processed, corporate, crap that it is. I dont call them food snobs. Why not? Because they are right, but I still enjoyed my lunch. And I will still eat there in the future. And I will enjoy higher quality restaurants and food often too.

Not sure why Bud Light drinkers dont have the same attitude.

The term 'craft beer movement' makes it sound like there is important work being done by those 'in the know' about beer. I'm asserting that this movement is turning more people off of craft beer than drawing them to it. At least on this website

No essay here Gary just a link to a website. http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/beer-sales
I'm sure you'll find some rational to disregard the numbers here in any case. In spite of your assertions, its is apparent that more people are drinking craft beer than ever. These are possibly your customers. I wonder at your rancor towards craft beer. Or is it just aimed at craft beer lovers who are not loath to proclaim their preference?

What's the beer list like at the restaurant you work at Gary? Do you serve Big Macs there? I've believe millions if not billions of those are sold every year to people who like them. Or at least people who want to pay a minimal price for their food. Sure a Big Mac gets the job done as does a 50 cent can of Budweiser.

If that's the extent of your aim - fill a hole or get drunk at the cheapest price possible then Big Macs and Budweiser make sense. Carry on.

Just don't expect people who participate on a foodie forum (this website) to respect that attitude.

I don't have your respect? I was wondering why I was having trouble sleeping at night. If you read the last sentence of my last post you'll see that I was referring to the beer snobs on THIS forum. I am saying that you, Roger and a few others are doing more to hurt your 'movement' than help it. If being in the beer elite means adopting your uppity attitude, then no thanks.

But just for you... I'll try rolling my eyes at anyone who orders a Bud Light tonight. I'll see where that gets me.

Just saw a restaurant website that goes back to the initial problem from the start of this thread:

Home page mentions happy hour with all drinks/wine/beer $1 off. Okay. Menu has the food items, hopefully up to date, seems to be a well put together website, so probably is. Then Bar menu page. Has wines (and prices) and an extensive liquor list (no prices, but I understand that). Beer list? Non-existent.

Is it a nice list, a crappy list? Who knows, because they didnt think it was important enough to tell anyone. LIKE THEY DIDNT THINK I WOULD MAKE MY DINING CHOICE BASED ON IT. WELL THEY WERE WRONG.

Sometimes beer geeks come off as beer snobs (and sometimes its well deserved), but part of the problem is stuff like this that should have been extinct 15 years ago still exists and pisses us (or at least me) off.

Sometimes beer geeks come off as beer snobs (and sometimes its well deserved), but part of the problem is stuff like this that should have been extinct 15 years ago still exists and pisses us (or at least me) off.

I was thinking much the same thing. It wasn't always easy for an operator or manager to offer beer choices, but now it is. Choices are many, excuses few.

As a side note to the notion of "push-back," as mentioned earlier, here's an interesting piece on the "rhetoric of intransigence" in response to social advances. Not all of it is relevant, but much of it rings true to me.

As for those who think I'm doing more to hurt the cause of good beer than to help it, you're entitled to your opinion ... just not your facts, which plainly are errant. I'm proud of what has been achieved, and satisfied with my part in it for the past 30 years.

SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES, posted by Atul Gawande (New Yorker)

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/06/something-wicked-this-way-comes.html

... Two decades ago, the economist Albert O. Hirschman published a historical study of the opposition to basic social advances; “the rhetoric of intransigence,” as he put it. He examined the structure of arguments—in the eighteenth century, against expansions of basic rights, such as freedom of speech, thought, and religion; in the nineteenth century, against widening the range of citizens who could vote and participate in government; and, in the twentieth century, against government-assured minimal levels of education, economic well-being, and security. In each instance, the reforms aimed to address deep, pressing, and complex societal problems—wicked problems, as we might call them. The reforms pursued straightforward goals but required inherently complicated, difficult-to-explain means of implementation. And, in each instance, Hirschman observed, reactionary argument took three basic forms: perversity, futility, and jeopardy.

I don't remember stating any facts. But as far as my opinion goes... you're right, it's just my opinion. But obviously I am not alone in this opinion. I mean c'mon... if it's gotten to the point where the scumbags on Craigslist are talking about you, you might want to reevaluate how you are perceived.

And I'm not trying to make this personal. I just feel that for what you are trying to do, your attitude should be a little more inclusive. Right now your public perception is anything but.

if it's gotten to the point where the scumbags on Craigslist are talking about you, you might want to reevaluate how you are perceived.

I haven't looked, but my guess is that those scumbags on Craigslist are posting anonymously, which means there could be 15 of them, or 1, or they might even be the very same people posting here. Who knows? I ceased being concerned with anonymous internet comments around 1996, and whenever I do think about them, my reaction is one of pity.

Is it a nice list, a crappy list? Who knows, because they didnt think it was important enough to tell anyone. LIKE THEY DIDNT THINK I WOULD MAKE MY DINING CHOICE BASED ON IT. WELL THEY WERE WRONG.

Nice post. (and on topic)

Anyway, Roger's original post is right. Quality beer selection is a driving force for a growing number of restaurant goers. Perhaps some of us are better described as beeries than foodies.

We dashed in and out of Kashmir for buffet dining yesterday just before viewing "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" across the street. If memory serves, the only non-golden lager on the list is Sierra Nevada Pale Ale.

That's hopeful, but just think how German-style wheat or selected Belgian-derived styles would accent the food ... and why every Indian restaurant in America wouldn't have an India Pale Ale on hand is a mystery. Even if it didn't pair with the food (it would), there's the name itself -- surely as resonant in a marketable sense as the many Kingfishers and such that taste entirely alike.

The beers I'm suggesting could be imported, although numerous American-crafted examples are to be found. In the end, it's all about education, and we're getting there.

We dashed in and out of Kashmir for buffet dining yesterday just before viewing "The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel" across the street.

Off topic, but, this is one of the funniest movies I have seen, especially us old folks.

Off topic, but, this is one of the funniest movies I have seen, especially us old folks.

Agreed ... and I'm only 52.

I haven't looked, but my guess is that those...

[sub: miscreants]

...on Craigslist are posting anonymously, which means there could be 15 of them, or 1, or they might even be the very same people posting here. Who knows? I ceased being concerned with anonymous internet comments around 1996, and whenever I do think about them, my reaction is one of pity.

Roger,

Re: the Craigslist, et al., trolls. I was curious, checked and found silly nonsense referencing LHB as well as you and subjects unrelated to food and drink. It wasn't worth even the two minutes. They're probably working on their credentials to become restaurant critics with the U of L Cardinal.

On the bright side, since 1996 I've noted public restroom stalls are less prone to defacement than before those people found the Web.

I’m just a good ole KY boy with a high school education. What I do have is a lot of common sense, business acumen and an ability to be open minded to other folk’s point of view.

I have not drank alcohol since March of 1988, and am jealous of the fact that there was not this plethora of beer choices during my drinking career. Considering this you might say that I don’t have a dog in this fight. You’d be wrong in that belief as not only is my lovely wife a card carrying craft beer snob, beer connoisseur, or beer b***ch as she likes to put it, as well I run one of those evil corporate restaurants that many of you on this board, especially the original poster, love to hate.

I agree with his assertion that it doesn't make sense not to expand beer selections, I don't often agree with the manner in which he communicates this sentiment.

Somewhat begrudgingly several years ago I bowed down to my wife’s nagging and introduced a selection of craft and premium import beers at my restaurant (Including but not limited to draft selections of Piraat, Elector, Hoptimus, Trois Pistoles and bottles of several Sam Smith’s, several Unibroue’s, Duvel, Celebrator Dopplebock, and my wife’s favorite St. Bernardus ABT 12). I was hesitant as I knew it was going to be a hassle to get them approved and put in our POS system through our corporate end. I also knew that there are many people like my wife that consider these wider ranging choices of beer an enhancement to there dining pleasure, and in her case if there is not a beer she enjoys she will order nothing. Also we probably will not be going back to that restaurant often no matter how much I enjoyed the food if she does not find a beer to her liking.

Of course one of the many challenges I have is that unfortunately a large portion of our local community that enjoys craft beers would not be found dead sitting in my restaurant or bar regardless of how much they might shockingly enjoy our food or our beer selection. It saddens me at times that this view is held by so many and that some look down there noses at me as not being a serious restaurant professional, but I digress. What I do get though, is many people coming in and being happily shocked to see that we have these choices. As well I have been able to turn some people on to some new choices.

I don’t see any reason that our vast array of local restaurants don’t add on at least a small number of “better” selections, even if only one or two of several different styles. It is amazing how many great locals don't carry a very good beer selection. If I could do it then they certainly could without much trouble.

What I also don’t understand is why both sides of this argument have to be so closed minded and confrontational to the other sides choices. Or why one side of the argument thinks lesser of the other side due to their choices. Some people just prefer vanilla. I see both sides of it. I myself love Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Charlie Daniel’s, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Hank Jr., Talking Heads and a little bit of Vivaldi. I like to switch it up and sometimes I might listen to nothing but the TH’s for a week. But I am not going to say your musical tastes are lesser than mine if you listen to nothing but top 40 pop or like mine are lesser than yours if you listen to nothing but classical.

[Robin Garr]

I run one of those evil corporate restaurants that many of you on this board, especially the original poster, love to hate.

Brad, I'm glad you spoke up. Putting a name and a face on a place "we love to hate" might be the best possible way to get people listening to each other.

Would you be comfortable letting us know where your restaurant is? I'd probably be a lot more interested in dropping in with an open mind if I knew the place was yours.

I run one of those evil corporate restaurants that many of you on this board, especially the original poster, love to hate....

Of course one of the many challenges I have is that unfortunately a large portion of our local community that enjoys craft beers would not be found dead sitting in my restaurant or bar regardless of how much they might shockingly enjoy our food or our beer selection. It saddens me at times that this view is held by so many and that some look down there noses at me as not being a serious restaurant professional...

Brad, (Thankfully) I don't think the majority of the people on this forum hold establishments such as yours in such low esteem...and even if they did, I think it would be a reach to say such people represent the dining/drinking mainstream. For every person that gets on here and babbles about the evils of corporate drinking/dining, there are probably hundreds of other people who are open minded enough to realize that just because a restaurant is "corporate" doesn't mean they serve bad food...or crappy beer. Personally, I don't think twice about who signs the employees paychecks when I'm deciding where to eat/drink and as a result my dining/drinking budget is split between "local' and "corporate" establishments, my guess is that these habits more approximate "the norm".