A Louisville City Market Tsunami

I'd love to see a concept like this come to Louisville, but I dont think there would enough public support to get money from the city/state to make it happen.

Depending on the location and the facilities already available there may not be a huge startup cost. I really think it may be easier to get some funding than everyone thinks depending on the $'s required and the enthusiasm of the people starting the facility.

If there is enough support for the idea, I dont think it needs city/state money to happen. With enough vendors it could be run as a for profit-business or as a non-profit organization. Either way, it should be able to raise start up capital.

The issues I see are...
Location

What percentage of local to non local produce would be a good ratio
What percentage of produce/meat/flowers to prepared food and beverage would be a good ratio

I think the ratios will work themselves out over time. There's no need to try to set and control fixed ratios. Let the market determine what the facility and community will support.

I very much see the need to set and control vendor ratios. I do have experience in setting up a central market. One of the issues we ran into when we started one a number of years back was this very problem. There was only so much space in the building. We had more people sign up than there was room for. If we only took those who first to sign up,there would not have been any meat,honey,cheese or plant vendors,,,just produce. Also once you have set aside a space for say a prepared food vendor and have all the infrastructure to do so(3 sink basins,walk in,vent hood, fans etc...)(or similar for a butcher) its not that easy to turn that spot into something else once that that tenant has defaulted on the rent.

Determine how to pay for the utilities/rent/taxes/insurance.. so forth
The last point I brought up is one I often wonder about...say the meat vendor has a walk in and open top coolers going. He is obviously using a lot more electric than the guy down the way selling onions and potatoes. Would every vendor have its own meters for utilities?

I think this is a lot simpler than you think. The fulltime brick and mortar vendors would obviously have their own utility meters and would pay rent just like they do at every other location. The rent like it does everywhere else would cover taxes, insurance on the buildings and grounds as well as interest and depreciation for the building.The part time/seasonal vendors would pay rent for their stalls again based on the area they are using. It would cover the same things as the fulltime vendors just in a smaller percentage.

Again this kind of goes back to the need to determine who/what ratio the vendors are going to be. Are you going to run the same water and utilities to every space(booth/store),regardless of the product being sold?

I also think it would be tough to draw the local vendors out of their respective markets. If you have been selling at the same place for years,its going to be tough to pull up stakes and move across town.

The only way to draw vendors would provide a place that was vibrant and had lots of potential customers. If you provide a place like this they would see the advantage to move there. You obviously cannot force them to move but you may be able to offer some incentives initially during the startup phase.

So kind of a "build it and they will come" approach? Im not sure building a purpose driven building without having a clear idea as to who the tenants are and what specific needs they have is a good idea.

I'd love to see a concept like this come to Louisville, but I dont think there would enough public support to get money from the city/state to make it happen.

Depending on the location and the facilities already available there may not be a huge startup cost. I really think it may be easier to get some funding than everyone thinks depending on the $'s required and the enthusiasm of the people starting the facility.

Well, I guess IF the project didnt cost money and IF there was a lot of community support it might be easy get funding,but those are two major "IFs).

EDIT TO TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE CRAZY QUOTES GOING ON..I KIND OF GOT LOST IN THE SEA OF QUOTES

If there is enough support for the idea, I dont think it needs city/state money to happen. With enough vendors it could be run as a for profit-business or as a non-profit organization. Either way, it should be able to raise start up capital.

Yes, if we lived in the Big Rock Candy Mountains everything would be great.

If there is enough support for the idea, I dont think it needs city/state money to happen. With enough vendors it could be run as a for profit-business or as a non-profit organization. Either way, it should be able to raise start up capital.

Yes, if we lived in the Big Rock Candy Mountains everything would be great.

Ummm....how do you think most businesses start? You come up with an idea, you find a source of capital and then you do it. Realistically, this idea is no different than a mall - only targeted primarily at food instead of clothing.

Of course, 80% of so of the time, the idea sucks and the money goes away, but that is why entrepreneurs keep at it.

Yes I agree with you completely. I made the snarky remark in reference to the "If there is enough support for the idea, I dont think it needs city/state money to happen" statement.Of course if there was support it would get support..investors,grants etc...to me that came off as "it would not be a problem if we didnt have any problems" kind of statement. I thought one of the issues being discussed had to do with why there was little support for the central market concept. It just seemed to gloss over one of the biggest hurdles for this type of project.

Yes I agree with you completely. I made the snarky remark in reference to the "If there is enough support for the idea, I dont think it needs city/state money to happen" statement.Of course if there was support it would get support..investors,grants etc...to me that came off as "it would not be a problem if we didnt have any problems" kind of statement. I thought one of the issues being discussed had to do with why there was little support for the central market concept. It just seemed to gloss over one of the biggest hurdles for this type of project.

Heh...fair enough. I was being snarky with my original comment anyway - if there is no support, why waste government money on it? If there is support, no need for government money.

Is there little support for the concept? Until someone tries it and fails, Im not sure if we know that or not.

I lived in Atlanta from 1973 to 1986. I remember when the DeKalb Farmers Market was just a neighborhood produce market. According to their website, they've grown into "a 140,000 sq. ft. true world market serving up to 100,000 people per week." Haven't been there in more than a decade, but I remember well the excitement of a marketplace offering every conceivable type of domestic, international and exotic produce imaginable as well as meats, cheeses, seafood, baked goods, you name it.

http://www.dekalbfarmersmarket.com/

The closest comparison I can think of would be Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati.

That kind of organic growth - from neighborhood market to a city's central market - is really what we should be talking about. All this talk about 'How, oh, how, can this happen?' is avoiding the obvious fact that there's probably no development easier than a permanent long-roofed shelter in a parking lot in a poor part of town. The lawyers and allotments and quotas and fees can evolve later.

If you build it...

you know the rest.

I very much see the need to set and control vendor ratios. I do have experience in setting up a central market. One of the issues we ran into when we started one a number of years back was this very problem. There was only so much space in the building. We had more people sign up than there was room for. If we only took those who first to sign up,there would not have been any meat,honey,cheese or plant vendors,,,just produce. Also once you have set aside a space for say a prepared food vendor and have all the infrastructure to do so(3 sink basins,walk in,vent hood, fans etc...)(or similar for a butcher) its not that easy to turn that spot into something else once that that tenant has defaulted on the rent.

Again this kind of goes back to the need to determine who/what ratio the vendors are going to be. Are you going to run the same water and utilities to every space(booth/store),regardless of the product being sold?

To make things simpler I will combine my answer to these two sections. I believed the ratio you were talking about was local vs.non-local and I don't believe it is just nor necessary to set a ratio for this. As far as the utilities go, I think other than electricity the only vendors who will require anything other than that should be permanent and thus be responsible for their own fixtures and the utilities required for them. I did not see a seasonal or occasional vendor have a need for anything other than electricity.

So kind of a "build it and they will come" approach? Im not sure building a purpose driven building without having a clear idea as to who the tenants are and what specific needs they have is a good idea.

You would have to get a commitment from some major brick and mortar vendors but I don't think you would have to for the others, they won't be making a long-term commitment so you'll have to depend on them coming once the facility is up and running.

To make things simpler I will combine my answer to these two sections. I believed the ratio you were talking about was local vs.non-local and I don't believe it is just nor necessary to set a ratio for this. As far as the utilities go, I think other than electricity the only vendors who will require anything other than that should be permanent and thus be responsible for their own fixtures and the utilities required for them. I did not see a seasonal or occasional vendor have a need for anything other than electricity.

In my original post I said
"What percentage of local to non local produce would be a good ratio
What percentage of produce/meat/flowers to prepared food and beverage would be a good ratio"

I agree that a "set" percentage of local to non-local is not necessary. I just was wondering what folks here thought would be a good ratio. One of the reasons I brought this up was the issue we ran into was dealing with SNP and WIC. The senor nutrition and Wic programs help local producers markets out but require the vouchers to only be used with local/KY produced goods. Again this may not be an issue,but something to consider when setting up a central market. One of the problems we ran into with the market we worked on was the lack of local producers. W had a bunch at first then the numbers fell. After that,many folks who came in were disappointed to not find local/artisan products. They often said something like "well I can just get that stuff from Wallmart or Kroger when Im there" and the market lost appeal as a special destination. I know its very important to have a good mix of vendors,either local or non local,to make a vibrant market. As I said earlier,when we were setting up a small central type market one of the hardest things was to keep a good mix of meat,cheese,other dairy,flowers,plants,fruit.etc...

As to your comment " I did not see a seasonal or occasional vendor have a need for anything other than electricity." Im a good example of somebody who would be seasonal and need access to utilities. I sell plants and they need water every day. Also an obvious addition to water I need access to drainage as well. Anybody who is selling something like greens/lettuce needs access to water as well. If your only out selling for a few hours at a time its not much of an issue,but if your set for a whole day of week you need to keep that stock hydrated. You may be surprised to see how many other seasonal vendors have a need for water.
The other statement you made "As far as the utilities go, I think other than electricity the only vendors who will require anything other than that should be permanent and thus be responsible for their own fixtures and the utilities required for them." So you are saying that vendors would have to be in place before construction of such market. Otherwise you would then have vendors having to jack hammer utilities through the floor of the building. This also goes back to my point about needing to know who your tenants are/could be prior to building a central market.

You would have to get a commitment from some major brick and mortar vendors but I don't think you would have to for the others, they won't be making a long-term commitment so you'll have to depend on them coming once the facility is up and running.

I agree for the most part. I think its easy to overlook the fact that some of the local meat and produce vendors in the metro area have been selling at the same space for many many years. Its going to be a big commitment for those vendors to break ties with those customers and move across town.

I had the pleasure of visiting this market last weekend. It was hopping with Memorial Day weekend and an awesome art fair across the street. Had a couple of beers at The Great Lakes Brewery and sauntered across the street to this:

God I wish we had something like this place...

Thanks for the tip off Steve P.! My friends just moved there and they're big times foodies, too. We also ate at Lola, one of Michael Simon's places. Maybe I'll put some of those pics on here, too...

At Lola:

I lived in Cleveland for a couple months after Katrina hit New Orleans, and the Westside Market is one of my favourite memories. Two things that should be noted about it that might make it more difficult to do here: First, the market is located a couple of blocks from a train stop, making is accessible to anyone with 3 bucks for the round trip. Second, there is a grocery store about a block from the market, making it very easy to stop there first and pick up dry and canned goods before hitting the market for fresh items. Lousville's public transportation system is lacking in comparison to Cleveland's which would limit the number of people who are trying to lower their carbon footprint (or who don't own a car) that would frequent such an establishment.
About the market, though- nobody has mentioned the fresh flowers sold by the main entrance. Maybe a half dozen vendors sold beautiful flowers at much less than florist prices, mix and match and create your own bouquet style. Kept me on good terms with my girlfriend at the time after stumbling home from Moriarty's a little too in my cups one night

Everything there, it seemed, was less expensive than here! I think that's in part due to their economy, but more than just that alone. I bought a cooler full of produce for next to nothing. One of the first low cost items I saw was a carton of blueberries for $1. Of course, just down the aisle, they were $2. Tough competition.

Thanks for your transportation account - that POV goes a long way.