Hoo hah! Wine shipping now legal to Kentucky consumers

[Robin Garr]

Does anyone know the status of this? We're headed to wine country in October and it sure would be nice to be able to ship some home.

Limbo, I'm afraid. The court threw out the law, but state government has made no provision for shipping, so UPS and FedEx et all assume the worst and won't officially ship to us, fearing that the removal of the new law may have left the old felony law standing. This is stupid, since the felony law was never enforced and applies, on any case, only on the second conviction after a warning - no warnings have ever been issued. But Wine Institute and Free The Grapes still list us as a red flag state.

I love wine, but being a beer guy, I wonder if this applies to beer as well. There are many beers that I can't buy here in the Commonwealth, but would love to have shipped to me. Anyone know if beer is part of this? Or, is it all alcohol?

The law didn't ever apply to beer to the best of my knowledge. Reading the article and the legal brief from the district court it talks about the law only applying to wine. If it is illegal to ship wine in it must be a different law but I've never heard a shipping beer was illegal. It's probably just not done because the shipping cost vs. beer cost ratio would be ridiculous compared to what it is for wine.

The Weeping Radish wont ship to KY because of the law. This has occurred a number of places, where the wine shipping law was overturned by the courts but the beer one stayed in place because no one had specifically challenged it.

Does anyone know the status of this? We're headed to wine country in October and it sure would be nice to be able to ship some home.

I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that if you make a retail purchase in California (or anywhere else for that matter) and box it up and ship it to yourself in Kentucky, that would be perfectly legal, right? It's just a retailer can't ship directly to you.

[Robin Garr]

Does anyone know the status of this? We're headed to wine country in October and it sure would be nice to be able to ship some home.

I don't know for sure, but it would seem to me that if you make a retail purchase in California (or anywhere else for that matter) and box it up and ship it to yourself in Kentucky, that would be perfectly legal, right? It's just a retailer can't ship directly to you.

More complicated: You can't get UPS or Fedex, etc., to ship to Kentucky; plus there's a double whammy: You aren't a licensed shipper of alcoholic beverages, so you can't legally ship to yourself even if you live in a state where it's okay.

By the way, I've put out an Email to KY ABC asking for clarification, and got a response from the first level. I hope the general counsel will reply, and of course I'll share anything I learn.

We visited 3 wineries in Napa that offered to ship to KY. I think I recall them saying something about, "they weren't shipping it, I was shipping it".

[Robin Garr]

We visited 3 wineries in Napa that offered to ship to KY. I think I recall them saying something about, "they weren't shipping it, I was shipping it".

Yeah, a lot of people in the industry, even during the bad days of the original felony law, understood that it was never being enforced. Kentucky was the test state for the wine and liquor wholesale lobby - the first to get its model felony law - quite frankly because it's so easy for a lobby group that makes a lot of contributions to purchase legislation for the price of a nice reception with shrimp and drinks.

The old law only invoked a felony upon the second conviction after a warning. As far as I know, no warning has ever been sent to anyone.

Anyway, you are correct, quite a few wineries and retailers will happily sell to you in Kentucky under the "shipping to yourself" fiction, with the understanding that if UPS confiscates it, you're boned. No recourse, no refund. But from what I hear there's really little difficulty getting shipments, at least in Louisville. The only problem is that a lot of vendors would just as soon keep things simple by saying no; and some others who would be willing can't get UPS or FedEx to accept shipments to us. It's unpredictable and variable, and ought to be cleaned up.

I don't know why this two-year-old decision doesn't seem to have had the intended effect, but I'm on the case now and hope ABC will clear things up for us.

So, Robin, you are saying the "shipping to yourself" (if done correctly) is still illegal?

[Robin Garr]

So, Robin, you are saying the "shipping to yourself" (if done correctly) is still illegal?

Define "illegal," TP. It's a morass. I'm awaiting word from the ABC's general counsel as to the current status of shipping to Kentucky, as they see it, in the aftermath of the 8th Circuit decision, which the state declined to further appeal.

But in a separate set of laws, in most states only licensed shippers are permitted to SHIP alcohol. So it's a double bind: Legally, even if your state allows you to RECEIVE alcohol, if you're not a licensed shipper, you're not qualified to SHIP it. (And then, to complicate matters further, the winery that you're getting the wine from, which IS licensed, may be offering to act as your agent and ship "your" wine to you on your behalf.)

See what I mean? There's a lot of legal fiction wrapped around all of this.

It is weird. We've been to CA 5 times in 6 years and each time it gets better. Last time, we brought 4 cases of wine to our B&B and the owners shipped it to us. We belong to 6 wine clubs who ship to us and one will only ship to my husband's office in Cinci. I would say, only about 1 in 10 wouldn't find some way to ship it. The law for some is if you are physically there to purchase it, they will ship.
Places that couldn't were anxious to help us find distributors, but that's not feasible for very small places.

btw- there's a great little place in Geyserville called Locals that handles very small production wines. There are some GREAT ones from there and it's a fun wine club. Next door is Diavolo's for the best Sicilian pizza in the USA.

But in a separate set of laws, in most states only licensed shippers are permitted to SHIP alcohol.

Got it Robin. The "licensed" part is what I didn't know existed. Thanks much.

If I read this article correctly, it appears that bourbon's somehow wrapped up in this whole to-do about shipping wine across state borders.

The relevant passage (emphasis mine):

The House bill, filed by Massachusetts Democrat Bill Delahunt, is supported by national beer wholesalers. It would amend two federal laws by declaring that states have the primary authority to regulate alcoholic beverages.

States also couldn't discriminate against out-of-state producers to the benefit of in-state producers without justification.

The National Beer Wholesalers Association says more than half of the states have had their alcohol regulations challenged, boosted by a 2005 U.S. Supreme Court ruling. That decision overturned Michigan and New York laws that prohibited buying wine directly from out-of-state wineries while allowing it to be bought from in-state wineries.


What a tangled web.

[Robin Garr]

That bill is not a good one, Steve. What it says, shorn of the legalese and without the beer-industry spin, is that they want things put back where they were before Granholm v. Heald: The wholesale distributors have a monopoly on wine distribution, and direct-to-consumer is out.

Here's an article I wrote about it recently, which includes a link to pester your Congresscritter:
http://www.wineloverspage.com/wineadvis ... 100423.php

If I read this article correctly, it appears that bourbon's somehow wrapped up in this whole to-do about shipping wine across state borders.

The relevant passage (emphasis mine):

The House bill, filed by Massachusetts Democrat Bill Delahunt, is supported by national beer wholesalers. It would amend two federal laws by declaring that states have the primary authority to regulate alcoholic beverages.

States also couldn't discriminate against out-of-state producers to the benefit of in-state producers without justification.

The National Beer Wholesalers Association says more than half of the states have had their alcohol regulations challenged, boosted by a 2005 U.S. Supreme Court ruling. That decision overturned Michigan and New York laws that prohibited buying wine directly from out-of-state wineries while allowing it to be bought from in-state wineries.


What a tangled web.