OK, I get that we're in a recession, but I need a pep talk.

IMO, if someone is dropping $120 on dinner, I doubt that they're cutting back on the tip in order to make the rent.

People should leave adequate tips in proportion to what they order. Period.

So basically what you are saying is that if I come into your place and you provide me excellent service but for whatever other reason I have a terrible meal I'm still supposed to tip you based on what I ordered ?...I don't think so Tim. While I can share your frustrations in these difficult times, your ability to remember my name or the extra ketchup I requested is but a small part of what goes into the overall restaurant experience. You work in a team environment and right, wrong or indifferent what comes out of the kitchen as well as the overall experience I do or do not enjoy is going to be factored in when it comes time to settle the bill.


(In the words of Comedian Ron White: I had the right to remain silent... but I didn't have the ability

Most of the people failing to tip properly just don't know how to play the game. They don't know how to play the game because we're a society that doesn't always value knowledge the way it should. None of us can change that.

I have always preferred the European way, and I always will prefer it, but it isn't the way we want to do it here; so be it. The system is organized to underpay servers and make up the difference with tips. If you don't grasp that, you should. Those are the rules we choose to play by, folks. When it comes time to figure out a better way, I'm right there.

As for me, I always tip 25% - 30%, and use cash whenever possible. Period. It's hard damned work. I can count on one hand the times I've gone lower, to 20%, and these were accompanied by an explanation when possible.

I understand this is a complex topic and strikes numerous nerves. But it should be recognized that ignorance is the prime culprit, followed by the inevitable fact that some people are cheap. As an owner, some might expect me to look at if differently.

But I was a curmudgeon before I was an owner. Now, back to my beer.

wow, just to touch on a few points of the entire thread. First servers in many places are still making that 2.13 an hr. Second as someone who was a waiter for several years can empathise with the frustration of not making ends meet at the end of a shift. I now however can't see why anyone should feel entitled to 20$ for opening a bottle of 100$ wine??? example only trying to keep the math simple. And as far as not ordering the appetizer or cutting back on the order would have only taken the bill total down and thus decreased the tip. Maybe maybe not? I say best of luck to us all and lets keep on keepin on.

Most of the people failing to tip properly just don't know how to play the game. They don't know how to play the game because we're a society that doesn't always value knowledge the way it should. None of us can change that.

I have always preferred the European way, and I always will prefer it, but it isn't the way we want to do it here; so be it. The system is organized to underpay servers and make up the difference with tips. If you don't grasp that, you should. Those are the rules we choose to play by, folks. When it comes time to figure out a better way, I'm right there.

As for me, I always tip 25% - 30%, and use cash whenever possible. Period. It's hard damned work. I can count on one hand the times I've gone lower, to 20%, and these were accompanied by an explanation when possible.

I understand this is a complex topic and strikes numerous nerves. But it should be recognized that ignorance is the prime culprit, followed by the inevitable fact that some people are cheap. As an owner, some might expect me to look at if differently.

But I was a curmudgeon before I was an owner. Now, back to my beer.

As Roger so loquaciously stated or how I so succinctly stated (These people are either uninformed as to proper tipping or are just cheap), it's all the same. They either are uninformed or cheap. If you cannot afford it, do not do it.

I hate to point out the obvious, but I will. That sort of attitude from wait staff is going to put restaurants out of business. "If you can't pay us at LEAST 20%, stay home!" I imagine the restaurant owners/managers would be rather ticked off if they discovered their staff telling paying customers to stay at home because they aren't tipping up to the waiters' standards. Just "food" for thought. I work in real estate. It would be pretty dumb of my colleagues to tell their clients not to buy homes if they can't afford to pay them the % they charge. Right now, EVERYTHING is negotiable.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you 100% but these aren't normal days we're dealing with. This is a severe recession. If you as a server or if the restaurant you work for wants to stick to the aforementioned attitude be prepared to padlock your doors and hit the streets to look for another job. There simply aren't as many monied diners out there to justify as many upscale restaurants as there are competing for dollars.

You know, I don't have an attitude. I simply expect to be compensated fairly. That's not unreasonable. I don't expect people to go out and spend as much as they might if they were making extra money. The place I work isn't even nearly as "upscale" as other places. I stand by my point: It's a down time in the economy, everyone is going to have to expect a little less. I do, in volume, and in check totals (ie: in the long run, tips). However, if you think you can afford to order $185 worth of food, or whatever amount, you should tip accordingly. I don't expect a perfect 20%, but if you go below 15, I'm going to take that pretty personally. That's a completely reasonable position. It's so easy to point fingers and say that servers have an attitude and high expectations, but I read about everyone's expectations on a daily basis on this board. I listen to gripes about many things, I listen to small observations about miniscule details and how things could have been better on a constant basis. Hotbytes goes 2 ways, I have the right to vent about behavior that I think is frustratingly rude as well.

And Michelle, way to completely miss the point. I mean totally. Forget it. Nevermind.

Thanks to everyone who commiserated with me. I for one, will continue to give great service regardless, but I expect I will have to continue to endure people who are going to stick with the idea that they'll get everything they want and leave the server a lousy tip, while they will continue to remind me how lucky I am to have a job. Not so lucky, when the people who tell you that are willing to short your salary per their whim.

I....have some things to say on this topic, but I will do it tomorrow when I've had some sleep and I'm less stressed!

Hang in there, Jeremy.

Well I am pretty exhausted too but this discussion just hit me like a triple shot of expresso here...I actually have been a server at one point and realize how very hard it can be to get by on tips since they make up the majority of a server's income. I have always considered the tip to be as much a part of the bill as an appetizer or drinks, while it may not be stated on paper just as much as a responsibility of the diner to pay. The amount may change according to the level of service I get but I ALWAYS try to be fair. There are also people out there that are simply cheap. I have been out to dinner with friends before when I realize they have left a horrible tip. More than once in this scenario I have "forgotten" something at our table so I could go back and leave extra money to make up for it and alleviate my embarassment. With this I do agree with the statement that if someone cannot afford the tip then they should reconsider what they are ordering. Eating out was a special treat growing up with a single mother but even she taught me that to not tip appropriately is simply bad manners!!

It is important to consider in the defense of the wait staff's income (and I have only gleaned the thread at a glance, please excuse if I'm sounding-off redundant), that a percentage of their gross tips are shared with service assistants, bar staff, food runners... All who usually take home a regular pay check at a higher salary rate in comparison to the wage earned by the server.

Many restaurant goers are not aware of this factor.

The server's gratuitous income is (in most cases) tracked and obligated to federal and state tax laws which for some odd reason escapes the scrutiny of regulation for gifted receipt in venues such as beauty salons and limousine/cab services.

With all due apologizes to all food servers and restaurant personnel I feel I must clarify what I said. I never said it was OK, acceptable or excusable for ANYONE to tip less than 15% for decent service. I'm a former bartender (for many years) myself and I never understood the oafs that would sit and drink all night while you lit every cigarette they smoked, kept their ashtray cleaned and a full supply of pretzels or cheesy crackers in front of them only to stiff you in the end. It's boorish behavior. All I was trying to convey was that we're going to be seeing a great deal more of it now. And to restate what Michelle accurately said

"If you can't pay us at LEAST 20%, stay home!" I imagine the restaurant owners/managers would be rather ticked off if they discovered their staff telling paying customers to stay at home because they aren't tipping up to the waiters' standards.

This attitude is a luxury. Another one that will fall along the wayside because of the current economy. I work on commissions myself and on a much larger scale than a food server.I have written contracts from clients agreeing to my business for which I earn X amount of dollars. I've rescheduled any number of advertising campaigns due to my clients inability to pay. That certainly eats into my wallet big time. But sometimes you just have to suck it up and keep going on. I know when the economy turns around my clients will remember what I did for them to help them get through these hellish months. The best way to deal with it is to smile, accept what you do get and get on with getting by. This period won't last forever. If you can't do that then your option is to look for another job. Not a fun thing to have to do right now.

who said "something is better than nothing"

People with next to nothing.

Under normal circumstances I would agree with you 100% but these aren't normal days we're dealing with. This is a severe recession. If you as a server or if the restaurant you work for wants to stick to the aforementioned attitude be prepared to padlock your doors and hit the streets to look for another job. There simply aren't as many monied diners out there to justify as many upscale restaurants as there are competing for dollars.

You know, I don't have an attitude. I simply expect to be compensated fairly. That's not unreasonable. I don't expect people to go out and spend as much as they might if they were making extra money. The place I work isn't even nearly as "upscale" as other places. I stand by my point: It's a down time in the economy, everyone is going to have to expect a little less. I do, in volume, and in check totals (ie: in the long run, tips). However, if you think you can afford to order $185 worth of food, or whatever amount, you should tip accordingly. I don't expect a perfect 20%, but if you go below 15, I'm going to take that pretty personally. That's a completely reasonable position. It's so easy to point fingers and say that servers have an attitude and high expectations, but I read about everyone's expectations on a daily basis on this board. I listen to gripes about many things, I listen to small observations about miniscule details and how things could have been better on a constant basis. Hotbytes goes 2 ways, I have the right to vent about behavior that I think is frustratingly rude as well.

And Michelle, way to completely miss the point. I mean totally. Forget it. Nevermind.

Thanks to everyone who commiserated with me. I for one, will continue to give great service regardless, but I expect I will have to continue to endure people who are going to stick with the idea that they'll get everything they want and leave the server a lousy tip, while they will continue to remind me how lucky I am to have a job. Not so lucky, when the people who tell you that are willing to short your salary per their whim.

You have the right to vent about behavior you find upsetting, and so do I. I would never, EVER leave a crappy tip, unless it was warranted, and even then, I would have a discussion with the Manager about why I was leaving a crappy tip. I'm not the enemy, Jeremy. I'm presenting another point of view, perhaps not the popular one, but one many restaurant patrons share.

To me, a tip is earned, not a given, and I see a lot of waitstaff out there who feel entitled to their "fair" share, without taking care of their customer (I'm sure you are NOT one of these people). This kind of attitude (from people who don't work as hard as you do), really urks me, as a customer. I agree you got stiffed, and that really, really sucks, but lots of people are getting paid less to do the same amount of work, and it sucks for everyone. I know people who are losing their jobs left and right, or being faced with getting their salaries cut, in order to keep their jobs. Yes, you got screwed. We all sympathize with that.

Michelle- here's where I think you're missing the point:

You keep talking about a tip being earned, not given. You also routinely note, that it sounds to you like I earn my tips by working hard (you'd be right about that). So, presuming that i work hard, then shouldn't I be absolutely in the right to be offended by a less than 15% tip? I guess what I mean is (in a much nicer way than this will sound) well, duh. Of course a tip is earned not given. I know this, and work hard because of it, so it's a moot point and doesn't really have anything to do with this particular discussion. I'm talking about customers who receive decidedly good service, and leave less tip because "times are bad" in spite of probably ordering beyond their means. If you want to start a thread about lazy servers who do a bad job, then bitch about not getting 20% go for it! Heck, I'd agree with how annoying that is myself! But I just don't see what it's adding to this particular discussion.

This is one of those discussions that we probably need a couple of shots of Pappy 12, a nice fire, and some good munchies.......

Suffice as to say, people, don't short change on the tips when you get good service. This is the livelyhood of the server we're talking about.