Help West Sixth Brewing against lawsuit

1) The fact that they are liars should be beyond debate at this point. They got caught bullshitting the public and I am certainly not the only one who has noticed this. The fact that so many people are supporting them with facebook likes and petition signatures despite their bald-faced lying is, IMO, pretty strong evidence of the superficiality of the facebook world.

2) There's a difference between being able to make a really good beer and being a good business owner/manager. I'm doing intellectual property protection work on three different designs at the moment and spending plenty of money on patent lawyers and due diligence so I don't end up like those guys. Doing your homework.... it's part of being a business owner.

3) The competitor offered West 6th St a very generous compromise IMO. In the future drop the Starburst and don't use materials which only use the core circle/6.....otherwise everything stays the same. West 6th St first agreed to this and then reneged. That flip flop is probably what prompted the competitor to finally file suit. Well.... that was stupid.

4) I never suggested that "millions of consumers" would be confused. I would suggest that the similarity of the designs is strong enough that it could cause some confusion and the competitor probably has an actionable case. Exactly the kind of case which patent and trademark attorneys litigate all the time.

5) Now it's pretty unlikely I'll stop by when I visit my family in Lexington. Now that I know they are BS artists I just don't feel inclined to support them.

1) The fact that they are liars should be beyond debate at this point. They got caught bullshitting the public and I am certainly not the only one who has noticed this. The fact that so many people are supporting them with facebook likes and petition signatures despite their bald-faced lying is, IMO, pretty strong evidence of the superficiality of the facebook world.

I've never tried to debate the "he said - she said" aspect of this issue. Don't even really care. I'm expressing my opinion, that Magic Hat's premise that they are being damaged has no merit. I hope it does go to court. If Magic Hat can prove their case, then that may be the end of it - or not.

2) There's a difference between being able to make a really good beer and being a good business owner/manager. I'm doing intellectual property protection work on three different designs at the moment and spending plenty of money on patent lawyers and due diligence so I don't end up like those guys. Doing your homework.... it's part of being a business owner.

No one is debating the quality of the beer and the quality of the ownership/management will be characterized as/after these events play out. No one is questioning your bonifides as regards to the general issue, I just disagree with some of your conclusions.

3) The competitor offered West 6th St a very generous compromise IMO. In the future drop the Starburst and don't use materials which only use the core circle/6.....otherwise everything stays the same. West 6th St first agreed to this and then reneged. That flip flop is probably what prompted the competitor to finally file suit. Well.... that was stupid.

Your and my opinions are based on the information we are privy to at the moment. I wonder if you agree that the information available might be incomplete, mischaracterized, spun, etc (by both parties?)

4) I never suggested that "millions of consumers" would be confused. I would suggest that the similarity of the designs is strong enough that it could cause some confusion and the competitor probably has an actionable case. Exactly the kind of case which patent and trademark attorneys litigate all the time.

I count a patent attorney among my own friends. He and I have spent many hours conversing about his job. Without such litigation, he would not have a job. It is in his interest to find/resolve contention. He is a seriously ethically challenged individual and I like him greatly. 50 shades of gray don't come close to describing his world view!

5) Now it's pretty unlikely I'll stop by when I visit my family in Lexington. Now that I know they are BS artists I just don't feel inclined to support them.

It may be that West Sixth have lied and spread bullshit in order to support their position in this issue. If so, then they are guilty of standard business practices recognized the world over. It may be that Magic Hat have also mislead in an attempt to bolster their own position. If so, I think no less of them than I did before.

I have been espousing the quality of West Sixth's IPA since LIBA festival in Louisville last summer. It is a wonderful beer and I suggest you try it when you get a chance. You do a search on this forum using "West Sixth" and you will find quite a few references to its quality, including my own.

It will taste the same regardless of how this turns out. So will Magic hat #9.

Thanks for the discourse Dan. Cheers!

A portion of my business is testing the uniqueness of logos for major companies. Before my clients come out with any logo we (with their attorneys) do a large-scale (rather large enough to pursuade a court if necessary - could be as few as 100 people!) test to determine the presence of any problems. Only after such market research demonstrates no problem do we recommend our clients introduce the logo.

We can argue till the cows come home whether we as individuals see a difference or not, or whether we are confused or not, or whether a "biggie" is hammering a "small guy", or whatever, but the answer can be obtained in a (relatively) inexpensive unbiased market research study, and said studies have proven to be probative in court.

I'm reminded of the (former) CEO of JC Penny, who came from Apple, decided that Penny's should no longer offer sales or deals, and was fired after a year and after having the chain's volume drop by around 50%. Had he done a $30K research study instead of telling people he knew what was best, he would have discovered that the Penny customer purchased 60% of their merchandise on sale, and by eliminating sales he was turning off the loyal customers (and bankrupting the company).

Petitions don't work, similar promotions don't work, but an unbiased research study (which will cost a LOT less than any lawsuit) will convince the vast majority of courts in the country.

I haven't read the entire thread, so who knows perhaps I've missed something imbedded in the rhetoric both here and in West 6th response...But on the surface it would appear that West 6th -needs- to fill their plate with a heaping helping of "Shut the F*** Up". While they have certainly done a relatively effective job of rallying the troops, the fact of the matter remains that publicly cocking off to a company who could...in about half a nano-second...very easily run them into the ground with legal fees (regardless of any merit a suit may or may not have) is asking for trouble. A passion for brewing is one thing...corporate suicide is an entirely different card game and it's a game where their hole cards (quite frankly) suck.

As an aside, I tried their beer...once...not realizing it had the vaunted "local" cache attached to it and was not overly impressed.

Andrew, that certainly seems like a methodology for beginning such a determination but I would expect that you would get varying results depending on the make-up of the group tested wouldn't you?

beer drinkers vs random group

commodity beer drinkers vs craft beer drinkers

women vs men

college grads vs common man/woman

etc.

Here is a link to Google's page featuring Magic Hat and West Sixth logos. I would be interested in hearing if after people have viewed this page, they think they would be easily confused by the two logos.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=jGKeUa5si-vRAebZgPgE&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1678&bih=849&q=magic%20hat%209%20in%20cans


Perhaps a Hot Bytes poll would be interesting on this subject.

Logo discussion aside, I rate West 6th's IPA just a little below Bell's Two Hearted, which is my yardstick for what an American IPA should taste like. I've recently had their Amber as well I'd call it a tasty, lighter and suitable beer in that category. Nothing great, but something I'll probably go back to because of the can and nice balance of taste.

Looks like West Sixth's efforts to resist the bully might not be in vain. Not everyone is ruled by fear and the mightiest doesn't always get their way.

Even if West Sixth eventually has to give in to Magic Hat because of the disparity in their size and resources, I can promise you that the irreparable harm done to Magic Hat has been done by Magic Hat

http://www.kyforward.com/2013/05/full-pint-west-sixth-brew-haha-more-about-corporate-strong-arming-than-logo-similarities/

Shane the thing is, all the #9 guys asked for was to delete the white starburst thingy which was gratuitously identical. And then just leave the rest of it alone. They also asked for future materials to not be solely the interior circle with the six. As long as they kept the text surrounding it, no lawsuit, no money changing hands, they didn't want all the nonexistent profits. No big deal really.

It seems to me the Lexington guys stopped listening to their lawyer who almost nailed a deal and then they foolishly went for the nuclear option. There's no way the lawyer would have signed off on the untruths and the online histrionics which sound pretty much like the kind of nastygram that a high school majorette tacks on her rival's locker.

If they were smart they'd cut a deal, plead for a bit of time due to finances, and then do some sort of high profile beer exchange with their new friends from Vermont. Everybody shakes hands, everybody sings the praises of craft brew, and they both spin the thing in a positive light with a ton of free advertising for both of them. That's a lot better than acting like butthurt whiners.

Shane the thing is, all the #9 guys asked for was to delete the white starburst thingy which was gratuitously identical. And then just leave the rest of it alone. They also asked for future materials to not be solely the interior circle with the six. As long as they kept the text surrounding it, no lawsuit, no money changing hands, they didn't want all the nonexistent profits. No big deal really.

It seems to me the Lexington guys stopped listening to their lawyer who almost nailed a deal and then they foolishly went for the nuclear option. There's no way the lawyer would have signed off on the untruths and the online histrionics which sound pretty much like the kind of nastygram that a high school majorette tacks on her rival's locker.

If they were smart they'd cut a deal, plead for a bit of time due to finances, and then do some sort of high profile beer exchange with their new friends from Vermont. Everybody shakes hands, everybody sings the praises of craft brew, and they both spin the thing in a positive light with a ton of free advertising for both of them. That's a lot better than acting like butthurt whiners.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's how things turn out. Everyone makes up and everyone profits by it. You can't deny though that West Sixth is cleaning up in the public opinion polls which is already translating to increased sales and profits while Magic Hat is taking a beating and will at least take a temporary (if insignificant) dip in sales.

In the end, Magic Hat and West Sixth have both raised their profiles significantly! Last week, nobody was talking about them. Now everybody is. That's a win - win.

If West Sixth had not taken this public then they would have had to capitulate quickly. Now they at least have some leverage to negotiate with.

Well, I'm no lawyer but I think if you tell blatant lies about your competition that exceed the normal notion of "spin"... and those lies lead to demonstrable financial damage.... that might just be the basis for another lawsuit. As it is, these FIFCO guys seem to be very, very smart and I'm guessing they have a number of scenarios they've thought about. Wish I'd bought their stock last year.

Andrew, that certainly seems like a methodology for beginning such a determination but I would expect that you would get varying results depending on the make-up of the group tested wouldn't you?

beer drinkers vs random group

commodity beer drinkers vs craft beer drinkers

women vs men

college grads vs common man/woman

etc.

.

That's why (a) you have different sizes of respondents, (b) why you can spend between $2500 and $90,000 on this, and (c) why you hire a professional (namely me) instead of doing it yourself.

I haven't bothered reading all of the letters published by both parties in this argument. I have looked in depth at the 2 logos in question and if you confuse the 2 of them, you've already had too many beers to drink and should be looking for a taxi to take you home! The only reason this entire thing started was because of bullying by a major corporations. The small player tried to appease him, because they knew they would lose in court because they lacked the financial resources to compete. When appeasement didn't work, they took the only course of action possible without deep pockets!

This is dumb and you're all dumb for posting about this issue. It is not bullying and quit trying to act like you all hate big corporations. Either you like West 6 and drink it or you don't. I have heard too much about this over the past couple of days. It is ridiculous for Magic Hat to bother West 6, but West 6 is too small to bother trying to fight this issue. Let's all move on to more important things already.

[Robin Garr]

Let's all move on to more important things already.

The really nice thing about forum software is that everyone can look at the topic titles and then only open the ones we think we'll like.

MagicAHat.jpg

Thanks to Sara F, who encapsulates my viewpoint with stunning clarity.