Vietnam Kitchen

#1 rule of food and beverage pairing: drink what you like with what you like to eat. So you're already there Dan.

To follow this rule is to concede that Americans might as well be drinking Dudweiser with turkey franks. Nope, not buying it. If this discussion is based on "if it feels good, do it, irrespective of ignorance," then it is not a discussion worth having.

I don't know, even most people I know who eat nothing but junk that comes out of a box and gets nuked will concede that turkey franks are pretty terrible. And most of them drink nothing but beers you poke fun of with puns that my kindergartener could have come up with. You give no ground Roger, a trait I sometimes find admirable. But not here - that is what makes this discussion not worth having.

So there's a relatively expensive wine we sell a fair bit of. It is not a well made wine by anyone's standards, but it is popular and has label appeal. The owner of the shop I work at and I joke about it, but if it makes our customers happy, I have no problem recommending it. A coworker suggested I ought to "educate" our customers more, and offer them some wines that I think are "better". If there is even a crack of daylight, the tiniest opening, I will push a customer towards wines that I think have more character, are more well made, reflect something about what I think is great about wine. But if someone is spending $40+ on a bottle, I want them to be happy, however ignorant they may be (or I may judge them to be). While I am in retail, I consider my role the same as those in the service industry. If someone walks away happy, I have done my job, but if I try and push someone towards my own preferences rather than fulfill their wishes, and they come away dissatisfied, I have not done my job. The role of the producer is different. It is your job to make the product that fulfills your vision, even if that means pushing the envelope. I think it's fair to have an understanding that your niche, what you do, may not appeal to everyone, but it is arrogant to deride those who do not share your interests as ignorant.

My post was not meant to be a veiled stab at you or your beers, rather what I said, at face value: a criticism of one aspect of an industry I'd like to see change.

I did not take it as such, and I was not answering based on my own beers.

I took the discussion there because though you may be the voice of the craft beer industry on this forum, I think it is a stretch to position yourself as such in any other world, including the real one. So the vitriol you leveled against seemed personal, and I aimed to take it out of that realm. I guess I was wrong, go on with your bad self, brother.

How many are hop forward and/or high gravity? Further, how many of the American craft takes on ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties have ibu's in excess of the classic Old World examples of those styles? My guess, not actually looking at what's there,is the majority meet my criticism. Or at least a strong plurality. Now that's veering into subjective territory, but at least we could look at ibu's and compare numbers.

Why are we looking at IBU's as the basis of this discussion?

Since you seemed to value my opinion so poorly, I offered that as an attempt at quantifying my point. More in my reply to Shane.

Yeah, comparing IBU's is a false trail.

Agreed. Or can be a false trail. Like many numbers, it can be misleading, but it is an accurate barometer of something, or else why would it see the light of day. Umm, I could go on here (I intended to as I mentioned above. . .), but I did say I didn't want to start a debate, and this discussion is already leaving a bitter taste in my mouth (pun intended). My issue is that so many American craft beers that I come across are terribly unbalanced. Heck, it's a huge problem in the American wine industry, and has become an issue with many contemporary international wine makers.

This comes back around to drink what you like when you eat what you like. Everybody's preferences are different, and while there tends to be some consensus about what good beer is among certain crowds, or good bbq, or whatever, in my experience, you know better what is appealing to you, though people in the industry may have invested more time and energy into experimentation to see what fits together well because that's what they do. The idea behind pairing is not to match food and beverages per se, but rather to attempt to create a synergistic relationship between beverage and food, where both complement and support each others flavors, textures and aromas. I will draw what is perhaps a crude analogy. It's like sex. You don't have to be a connoisseur of sex to enjoy sex. And even bad sex usually has some aspect of it that is enjoyable. But sometimes, with the right partner and the right circumstances, you have good sex. And good sex is much better than bad sex, or even mediocre sex. But then sometimes, you have great sex, and that's that many more times better.

A beer offsite sounds fun, but I work the night shift, and the couple of nights I get off a week I save for my family. Hopefully that situation will not last forever, and we can throw back a couple before too long.

You tell me what you've got on tap at Rich-O's right now (I suppose I could do this myself on your website, since I am one of those losers that uses the Minton closure as an excuse for not coming over there as often as I should). Exclude the imports, since we're arguing about American craft beers. Or we could choose the Grale, Sergio's, Beer Store, heck even Nachbar. Beer-centric establishment of your choice. How many are hop forward and/or high gravity? Further, how many of the American craft takes on ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties have ibu's in excess of the classic Old World examples of those styles? My guess, not actually looking at what's there,is the majority meet my criticism. Or at least a strong plurality. Now that's veering into subjective territory, but at least we could look at ibu's and compare numbers. I think my point will stand up.

I glanced yesterday. As far as the taps are concerned, perhaps an equal mix; there's a hop-heavy Three Floyds and big Boulevard Wheat Wine, but also a center of the target Pils from Great Divide. Of our own beers on tap, we have a good contingent of session strength: Tafel, Community, Helles, Dunkel. None are hop heavy, all are 5% abv or less.

Having said this, I concede that our draft choices tend to skew upward, especially during (what should be) colder weather. That's why we reformatted the bottle list to cover as much of the BJCP-mandated stylistic ground as possible.

Roger, I'm coming to Bank St for lunch on Tuesday for the Creole concoction with sausage, shrimp, crawfish. I'm planning to drink a Beak's with it because that's what I like. Is that wrong? Cheers

Be careful, Shane. There is a hop profile to Beak's. There may be a violent clash with the Creole. However, seeing as one of my favorite pursuits is speedballing wasabi and double IPA, I'd say go right ahead

I took the discussion there because though you may be the voice of the craft beer industry on this forum, I think it is a stretch to position yourself as such in any other world, including the real one. So the vitriol you leveled against seemed personal, and I aimed to take it out of that realm. I guess I was wrong, go on with your bad self, brother.

What I actually am is someone in the craft beer business who bothers to post on this forum. I am the voice of myself, and my primary objective is to be as truthful as possible at all times, while understanding that it isn't always possible to be objective for reasons that could fill a philosophy course curriculum, and do.

Rereading these posts, I confess to much confusion as to where you're going with your points. Others might disagree, and that's fine. My daily stance remains:

Craft beer comprises a wide world of styles, many of which can be paired with food of all sorts. Precisely because middling common denominators define the existence of most people, including me (tuna from a can, once a week like clockwork) it's always a good thing to shake their roots on occasion. In such a fashion, we learn and grow. If we didn't learn and grow, and accept the informed testimony of others, sewage would still be running down the center of streets.

And so on. Take it where you wish, because I'm serene.