when restaurants refuse substitutions

david clancy, why don't you go scramble some eggs...
first off you weren't there.
second, i tell it like it is. no one is throwing anyone under the bus as you say. don't like it, sorry cook...
the issue here was the restaurant chose to turn a deaf ear on a customers simple request. got a problem with that david? it concerned an item on top of a piece of meat that she is allergic to it. simple solution was to leave the item off.
i can tell you wouldn't be so accommodating either by your attitude. as a cook that you are.

This is the ignorance that makes it difficult for me to support this forum sometimes,

Now the original poster of this thread as usual has become combative and has lowered herself AGAIN to belittle a fellow forumite who obviously is well respected in the hospitality community ( working at 2 very fine and respected establishments ) by using job "title" comments, in I guess getting the satisfaction of possibly using her "thick skin, straight shooter" garbage mentality to make her feel good while trying to knock someone down all in the comfort of her computer screen !
Now I know there is going to be comments about C.Q. possibly and also I will probaly get a new "title" from the original poster but give me a freakin' break.
We all work in a very tough profession by choice and I am very protective of the people I work with and also have wore the shoes of every position in this business with the exception of Chef and to try to degrade someone who has been in this business for a long time and has been successful in this business just does not make sense to me ? !, especially someone whom has earned the title !
There is a whole hell of a lot more that I want to say right now, but a wise person whom is also in this business once told me to wait 24 hours and think about things, then if you feel the same as you did type away !
Peace

[Robin Garr]

Peace

Peace, Alan.

As a longtime supporter and friend, I hope you won't judge the forum on the basis of a few. Just like a decent restaurant, we have a wide range of revelers in this virtual pub on the Info Highway. And just like a decent restaurant, we try to accommodate just about everyone and avoid calling in the bouncers unless we really need to.

Peace out ...

here's a restaurant that isn't accommodating towards a customers request...
Harvest. owner ivor wouldn't budge. i just sat there and my dining companion and i were like, we'll never go back. i wasn't the recipient, but it didn't matter. what an attitude he had.

So, as I see it, you would throw a new restaurant and the owner under the bus, rather than deal with the real issues?? Great job annemarie! Keep up that good work!!

I don't understand how one would be expected to deal with a situation like that. I'm not taking sides here at all. I'm just wondering - so a restaurant owner says, "We won't accommodate you." How would you as a diner "deal with that" as a "real issue"?

I also forgot to mention in my reply about Blue Dog that we didn't even bother ordering. When the server said he wouldn't accommodate me, we said we'd have to leave because there was nothing on the menu I could eat. He basically said, "Okay." And we didn't say, "Well, fine. Then we'll take our business elsewhere!" while stomping off in a huff. I was frankly flabbergasted and said I guess we'd have to leave because I didn't think I could eat the food. He was perfectly happy to let us leave and take the next party instead.

So I'll give you one of my true experiences. This one is from Blind Pig on the evening of Thursday, May 13, 2010. My wife had the sausage platter (she deemed it really good) and I had the bison burger. I tried to get it with raw instead of grilled onions and the waiter said that might not be possible. I noted the obvious: onions come raw. He went back to check and said the chef ‘couldn’t’ do it. I said no onions, then, as in 53 years I've never had cooked onions that tasted very good, let alone as much like sheer ambrosia as raw onions. It would have been way better with raw onions, but what do I know, I'm just a customer. Or was. We've never been back and don't expect to be. See, here's the deal and Forumites can judge for themselves. Yes, there are some high end establishments that can reasonably expect patrons to take on faith they are doing a sort of culinary artistry that can't be messed with by the fact you are dropping two weeks wages. But you know going in that this is like a theater performance where they don't do requests. It's not about you, the customer. They do what they do and the prices are set to keep out the vulgarians; we don't expect such fanatical behavior at a place where the riff-raff can afford to go. I expect even my dull awareness can perceive that raw onions are a reasonable option on a burger. Did I ask to talk to the manager? No, I did not. Should I have? You judge - I thought I expressed my preference enough and just wanted to leave. To stay and justify my position as a customer (imagine a world where THAT is a proper construction for a sentence) was out of the question. I spent my career in manufacturing where the customer is the be all and end all. Full stop. Customers did not spend their time educating us in how to please them. They went elsewhere since there are so MANY options, as did my wife and I.

In a metro with as many restaurants as we have, I am way more in the mode to whittle the list down to ones that focus more on the customer coming in than the prima donnas inside. I'm betting we've all been to plenty of classy places that can get off their pedistals to work with a paying customer on a reasonable request. The others can more quickly become "whatever happened to" if us customers dish to each other. I figure that's a win-win: they don't want "our kind" and we can free up tables for them until they grow up or go out of business.

Diners of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but restaurants run by people who do not want us around anyway!

I am biased as a former employee of the Blind Pig, but as I recall from working there, the sandwich that you ordered is a patty melt, not just a bison burger. I would argue that grilled onions are fairly integral to any patty melt, to the point where onions are part of the definition of what a patty melt is.

It's very possible that no raw onions were available, as I'd guess the onions are grilled ahead of time, during dinner prep, then re-heated on the grill with the bison. The Blind Pig doesn't have a large kitchen, and has a small walk-in refrigerator compared to a number of other places I've worked that have as much sales volume. Either way, if it was really such a big problem that you wouldn't go back, it really would've been worth talking to the manager to hear why they couldn't accommodate your request. Perhaps they would've changed your mind, perhaps not, but at least the management would know your concerns.

Instead of just giving the answer of 'no' to a substitution, owners and mangers should consider training their staff to communicate the 'why' their customer cannot be reasonably accommodated. When I was in business (not hospitality), I often had turned down a client's request. But, I never told them no without an explanation. More often than not, they were understanding and appreciative of my reasons. Plus, I did not force then to go "over my head". IMO, explanations are just as important as the answer and are an important component of customer service.

[Robin Garr]

IMO, explanations are just as important as the answer and are an important component of customer service.

Excellent advice! I would say that this approach makes sense and should be the option of choice at least 95 percent of the time.

The other 5 percent of cases occur because the customer or client is a sphincter, and there's rarely any upside for management in making an explicit declaration of this.

I think a good and reasonable explanation goes a long way to smoothing inflexibility or inability to handle a request. (In the Blind Pig case, I would have sent raw onions on the side were it possible, otherwise, would have explained why it was not possible)

As to the philosophical nature of the debate on substitutions, I would have trouble respecting a fine dining restaurant that was willing to sacrifice their integrity, and their chef's, just to make sure that every customer got every substitution they could come up with. If that were the norm, we could just make every restaurant menu a la carte and the customers could design their own dishes since they know better than the chef what tastes good. I thought part of the reason we ate out is because we had faith that the chef making our food knew something that we didn't. I can make great food at home if I want to. I go out because I want to see what else is out there not try to one-up the chef.


I stand by the "trust your chef" motto. If a dish has an ingredient I don't like, I'll either trust the chef and try it anyway, (maybe I'm wrong, maybe this dish changes my mind, it has happened before), or I'll order something else. I don't go to my auto mechanic and tell him to change my spark plugs when he says the water pump has gone out...

I don't go to my auto mechanic and tell him to change my spark plugs when he says the water pump has gone out...

Good one! That is the quote of the day in my book!

I thought part of the reason we ate out is because we had faith that the chef making our food knew something that we didn't.

That's what I thought too, so please explain to me the pepper mill that comes out. Does that mean the chef didn't add pepper and so now the diner is in charge? Also it appears before one has had a chance to take a bite. I don't get it.

I thought part of the reason we ate out is because we had faith that the chef making our food knew something that we didn't.

That's what I thought too, so please explain to me the pepper mill that comes out. Does that mean the chef didn't add pepper and so now the diner is in charge? Also it appears before one has had a chance to take a bite. I don't get it.

I was thinking about the same thing! Leaving a minor ingredient out of a dish is no different than having the waiter immediately ask you if you want fresh ground pepper on a dish before you you've even tasted it! If the chef prepared a perfect dish that cannot be modified why do they even offer salt and pepper?

How many people do you know that salt/pepper their foods before they take a bite? I know it's not uncommon. I've seen it occur more than one time with people eating out. So why blame the chef on this particular instance for the same thing a person should not be doing in the first place? I'm a little confused.

So, as I see it, you would throw a new restaurant and the owner under the bus, rather than deal with the real issues?? Great job annemarie! Keep up that good work!!

It's not just restaurant critics that get recognized and given special treatment, you know.

To be fair, I did bring you extra shrimp @Carly Raes, and extra Mussels @NaExchange, but you should have been in disguise,,,,,,,!

david clancy, why don't you go scramble some eggs...
first off you weren't there.
second, i tell it like it is. no one is throwing anyone under the bus as you say. don't like it, sorry cook...
the issue here was the restaurant chose to turn a deaf ear on a customers simple request. got a problem with that david? it concerned an item on top of a piece of meat that she is allergic to it. simple solution was to leave the item off.
i can tell you wouldn't be so accommodating either by your attitude. as a cook that you are.

Indeed and quite true. Sorry I called you out, but, then again, you called out a truly cutting edge place and I have a problem with that (it's a culinary thing...you wouldn't understand). I guess now is the time for me to saunter off and scramble some eggs........(by the way, I would bend over backwoods for any customer...just sayin )

Wow - it must be nearly impossible to dine out with an onion allergy. You could never have soup, or sauce of any kind that was made from stock, or thousands of things that were marinated with onions. If the place serves onion rings or crispy onions, you wouldn't be able to eat anything fried there (onion residue in the fryer oil). You couldn't eat many commercial salad dressings (onion powder) Allium allergies extend to garlic, as well. I can't believe she's brave enough to even set foot in a restaurant.

But a chef refusing to leave fried onions off a steak? Pretty wacky.

...as I recall from working there, the sandwich that you ordered is a patty melt, not just a bison burger. I would argue that grilled onions are fairly integral to any patty melt, to the point where onions are part of the definition of what a patty melt is. It's very possible that no raw onions were available...

Honestly, I've never ordered a patty melt in my life as when I see those words on a menu my eyes keep going down the page. I wrote bison burger in my journal after getting home that evening. But that's a point about the availablilty of raw onions. If that was the case I wish that had been communicated. Some others have posted in a point well taken about the importance of conveying the "why" part.

BTW, your old stomping grounds was really good on previous visits. In fact, I almost posted about this incident right after the fact but logged off instead because they'd only been open about six weeks and I thought (and still do) that they were doing a good thing for the community by providing a cool place to go in Butchertown, an area that needs more eateries to take that sort of risk. Probably should have got it off my chest back then.

I'm sure it wasn't the only time in my life, but is really is the only one I can recall where I've been refused on a change. That's probably because I only ever ask for things to be left off or for onions to be uncooked. Nothing off the wall, just things that are super easy and don't affect the bottom line (except in a positive direction).

i couldn't care less if this place is a cutting edge place, a dive, or a 4 star. it is what it is.

Spoken like a customer. Yeah, refusing to leave crispy onions off a steak is for any typical diner an excellent example of when a restaurant goes off the rails. It's all in the specifics. Let the public decide the significance.

How many people do you know that salt/pepper their foods before they take a bite? I know it's not uncommon. I've seen it occur more than one time with people eating out. So why blame the chef on this particular instance for the same thing a person should not be doing in the first place? I'm a little confused.

I was thinking more about restaurants where immediately after you were served the waiter is standing there with a big pepper mill asking you if you want fresh ground pepper! In that case it is the restaurant providing additional flavoring beyond what the chef considered appropriate.