Doc Crows - Constructive Criticism

I had a Colorado Native lager. While not local here, it's a microbrew, brewed by the AC Golden Brewing Company. Don't want to be supporting those macro-brewers.

Please tell me you know who is AC Golden.

A brewer of GREAT LOCAL BEER?!

yes, I know who they are. Thought the wink emoticon would help emphasize my sarcasm.

I am blind to emoticons, but suspected you knew from the tone.

But did he order it with ice?

I went tonight with the misses and another couple. I'm no judge or anything, but I thought the food was pretty darn tasty. I got the pulled pork sandwich complete with cole slaw, friend tobacco onions, and pickles, once the sauce was added it was a good sandwich, much better than most I've had in the area. Our server was a bit off, or maybe just hard to read. He attempted to come across as laid back, but almost had a jerk vibe to him. He ended our night by showing us around the back room and telling us a bit about the place though, which I thought was pretty neat. All in all a good experience and I forsee a return trip in the near future.

Thanks for your views Steve. We truly apologize you did not enjoy your experience at Doc Crow’s.

Before going into the details, I want to clear up a couple of your misconceptions you have about us. A raw bar has nothing to do with Sushi. A raw bar in any coastal Southern city is about the raw oysters as it is with us. There are also no “East Meets West” motifs in our decor and menu. Outside of being modern, I’m not sure where that perception came from. Perhaps if my partners were not Vietnamese you would not be as confused?

We are also not a BBQ joint. We are a Southern Cuisine concept that actually has more seafood than smoked meats. We do strive to serve great Q and it sounds like we came way short of that on your table.

Other misconceptions that need to be cleared up. We remove the membrane from all our ribs and yes, we cut our brisket (mostly) against the grain. We smoke our meats at 200 degrees for varying times depending on the cut and size of the particular batch. We do not throw our meats in, set a timer, and simply forget them. We monitor the smoke and all the smoked proteins’ progress, especially in the final hours.

After reading your post, I followed up with every staff member that had anything to do with your meal to figure out what happened because it runs contrary to the feedback we have received from the majority of other BBQ aficionados. Your server Tzipora remembers your table because you guys told her you were BBQ judges and remembers the split plate of brisket & shoulder. With her help I was able to piece together what may have went wrong.

Right before our ribs go out, we throw them on the charbroiler briefly before plating. My guess is they left your ribs on there too long taking away all the benefit of slow smoking, flavor and all. It is also possible the prep cook missed the membrane on your rib. We have taken steps to make sure that is not a possibility in the future.

A full brisket actually has two layers. Some prefer to cut the top layer off for uniformity. We go Texas style and keep the top layer for the fat content to add moisture to the leaner bottom layer. The top layer’s grain usually runs at a 90 degree angle from the bottom so the lower tougher half is cut against the grain which means the top half is cut with the grain. From what I gather, your half-serving must have been mostly from the top or was cut near the end of the brisket where the bottom grain turns and the cook did not compensate properly. Regardless, what you received was not ideal.

When you were in, it was our 9th day of business. In those nine days, we’ve received quite a few opinions of our BBQ. One of the founders and judges of the Great American Rib Cook Off was in town last week for four days and dined with us each of those days because he felt we had the best BBQ in the region. We have also had a couple of restaurateurs from Memphis tell us our Baby Back Ribs rival their city’s best.

On the other side of the coin, we’ve had quite a few amateur experts like yourself express their opinions. Some compete but many are just backyard Q-fanatics. The reviews have been mixed. Some like you feel we don’t use enough smoke or seasoning...some say it is perfect. One couple told us they did not like our ribs because they aren’t just like what they make at home. My point is there is no “standard” that covers every region or personal opinion. Everyone, certified judge or no, has their own opinion on what BBQ should be. All are right and none are wrong. BBQ is very personal.

Your complaints however were not just about style...it was about quality and unfortunately what hit your table was not up to your standards nor ours. What troubles me is why you did not bring this to our attention while in Doc Crow’s when we could have done something about it? You are not a professional food critic so no need to keep your identity secret. Your food came out wrong...I own that...but if you can take the time to provide a lengthy constructive criticism in a public forum that states something as destructive as “worst restaurant BBQ I’ve had”, couldn’t you have at least taken a couple of seconds and ask to speak to the owner or manager? If you would have done so, I am confident you would have left with a different opinion.

So I ask Mr & Mrs P back in, preferably on a non-event day . I will gladly show you guys around our kitchen operation. We’ll cut into a couple of racks, slice into our brisket and pull some pork shoulder meat so you can see up-close everything we do. I will explain the challenges we have been facing with our BBQ and how we are learning to deal with them. I will also welcome your feedback on our efforts being we are new and still dialing in the details. I’m sure we could learn a great deal from you.

Sound fair?

Thanks for your views Steve. We truly apologize you did not enjoy your experience at Doc Crow’s.

Before going into the details, I want to clear up a couple of your misconceptions you have about us. A raw bar has nothing to do with Sushi. A raw bar in any coastal Southern city is about the raw oysters as it is with us. There are also no “East Meets West” motifs in our decor and menu. Outside of being modern, I’m not sure where that perception came from. Perhaps if my partners were not Vietnamese you would not be as confused?

My misconceptions acknowledged. Thank you for clearing that up. As for your partners cultural heritage contributing to my misconceptions...You'll have to excuse me but I really don't have my thumb on the pulse of the "who's who" in the L'ville dining scene...I honestly have no idea who your partners are, much less what their their cultural heritage is. If it's been mentioned on this forum before, I certainly have no recollection of it. To be totally candid, I take exception to your implying that that this would have anything to do with the opinions I expressed.

We are also not a BBQ joint. We are a Southern Cuisine concept that actually has more seafood than smoked meats. We do strive to serve great Q and it sounds like we came way short of that on your table.

Other misconceptions that need to be cleared up. We remove the membrane from all our ribs and yes, we cut our brisket (mostly) against the grain. We smoke our meats at 200 degrees for varying times depending on the cut and size of the particular batch. We do not throw our meats in, set a timer, and simply forget them. We monitor the smoke and all the smoked proteins’ progress, especially in the final hours.

After reading your post, I followed up with every staff member that had anything to do with your meal to figure out what happened because it runs contrary to the feedback we have received from the majority of other BBQ aficionados. Your server Tzipora remembers your table because you guys told her you were BBQ judges and remembers the split plate of brisket & shoulder. With her help I was able to piece together what may have went wrong.

Tzipora...that is correct (my apologies to her for getting the name wrong). GREAT service. Very friendly, knowledgeable, accommodating...Totally satisfactory. If I owned a restaurant, I'd hire her in a heartbeat. I sincerely hope nothing I said in the course of offering my opinions of our meal reflected poorly on her...

As for the membrane being removed from all of your ribs and the Brisket being cut being cut across the grain...Well <sigh>...I guess I was just the lucky guy who got the ones you missed. BTW...you might want to crank that oven/smoker up to about 240...A little fruit wood in the mix might help too.

Right before our ribs go out, we throw them on the charbroiler briefly before plating. My guess is they left your ribs on there too long taking away all the benefit of slow smoking, flavor and all. It is also possible the prep cook missed the membrane on your rib. We have taken steps to make sure that is not a possibility in the future.

Speaking as someone who could write a dissertation on how to screw up ribs...I've done it more times than my ego will allow me to admit...it wasn't just 5 minutes on the Char broiler that caused these ribs to be over cooked. More like 45-50 minutes too long on in the oven/smoker. I think we can agree to disagree on this point and move along

A full brisket actually has two layers. Some prefer to cut the top layer off for uniformity. We go Texas style and keep the top layer for the fat content to add moisture to the leaner bottom layer. The top layer’s grain usually runs at a 90 degree angle from the bottom so the lower tougher half is cut against the grain which means the top half is cut with the grain. From what I gather, your half-serving must have been mostly from the top or was cut near the end of the brisket where the bottom grain turns and the cook did not compensate properly. Regardless, what you received was not ideal.

Yes...the "point" and the "flat"...and I am familiar with the anatomical nuances of each. I will acknowledge that it takes a modest degree of experience to get the best cut each and every time but the instance of our meal the cut was was but one issue I had...my primary complaint was that it was moderately undercooked and (and shall we say) "Smoke Challenged".

When you were in, it was our 9th day of business. In those nine days, we’ve received quite a few opinions of our BBQ. One of the founders and judges of the Great American Rib Cook Off was in town last week for four days and dined with us each of those days because he felt we had the best BBQ in the region. We have also had a couple of restaurateurs from Memphis tell us our Baby Back Ribs rival their city’s best.

It's probably not in either of our best interests to get into a culinary battle of opinions. I'm not going to question the validity or expertise of customer reviews which happen to be contrary to my own...Neither am I backing down from my somewhat informed opinions. If you have customers who are t-totally happy with your product...Good on ya.

On the other side of the coin, we’ve had quite a few amateur experts like yourself express their opinions. Some compete but many are just backyard Q-fanatics. The reviews have been mixed. Some like you feel we don’t use enough smoke or seasoning...some say it is perfect. One couple told us they did not like our ribs because they aren’t just like what they make at home. My point is there is no “standard” that covers every region or personal opinion. Everyone, certified judge or no, has their own opinion on what BBQ should be. All are right and none are wrong. BBQ is very personal.

While I would agree with your statement that "all are right and none are wrong"...If it were me, I would remind myself that rave reviews from founders of Rib Burnoffs and Memphis restauranteurs are few and far between. Ultimately it will be (local) "amateur experts" like myself who pass judgement on the quality of your product. Unfortunately...for restaurantuers...with the advent of such websites as Hotbytes, Urban Spoon, etc, etc, ad nauseam, everyone is an "amateur expert" these days. This is a double edged sword and can be both good and bad...As a result one must always be cognizant of the fact that once the shine is off the new car your reputation won't be built on highly placed opinions...and it's very likely that those opinions will be voiced on some website or forum.

Your complaints however were not just about style...it was about quality and unfortunately what hit your table was not up to your standards nor ours. What troubles me is why you did not bring this to our attention while in Doc Crow’s when we could have done something about it? You are not a professional food critic so no need to keep your identity secret. Your food came out wrong...I own that...but if you can take the time to provide a lengthy constructive criticism in a public forum that states something as destructive as “worst restaurant BBQ I’ve had”, couldn’t you have at least taken a couple of seconds and ask to speak to the owner or manager? If you would have done so, I am confident you would have left with a different opinion.

Actually, my comments had nothing to do with "style" and everything to do with quality. While not up to Doc Crows standards, the product (as served) was certainly up to someones...lest it wouldn't have left the kitchen. (Personally) I attribute my lack of satisfaction less to Doc Crows "standards" and more to a lack of knowledge and experience (on the part of someone) in preparing this type of cruisine. In retrospect, I do wish I had taken the time to critique the quality of your product in person...Not that I held any illusion (then or now) that my amateurish expertise could possibly compare to that of the founder of a Rib Cookoff...As a result of my not taking the time to provide you my personal critique I am offering as sincere of an apology as I am able to muster. Critiques aside, given your stated high standards, combined with what I'm sure will be a growing vault of knowledge and experience, I have no doubt you'll have this BBQ stuff down in no time.

So I ask Mr & Mrs P back in, preferably on a non-event day . I will gladly show you guys around our kitchen operation. We’ll cut into a couple of racks, slice into our brisket and pull some pork shoulder meat so you can see up-close everything we do. I will explain the challenges we have been facing with our BBQ and how we are learning to deal with them. I will also welcome your feedback on our efforts being we are new and still dialing in the details. I’m sure we could learn a great deal from you.

Sound fair?

Thank you very much for your offer of gracious hospitality...I'm certain we'll be sticking our head in the door again once the shine off off the new car. As for a tour of the facilities...Given my "constructive criticism" I'm not sure if Zorro is ready to remove the mask at this time...as I understand it some of those Chef's keep a "special" knife under the counter for people like me That being said, if you ever have a desire to sweat your ass off in 90 degree heat for 36 sleepless hours in search of that "perfect" rack of ribs...drop me a P.M...I'm sure we'll be cooking a few contests locally this year and you are more than welcome to stop by for a cold one.

I apologize, we remember your post ... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9171&p=86091&hilit=Basa#p86091... which is why I thought you knew who the Ton brothers are. Others made the mistake to think "raw bar" was sushi because of their Asian heritage so no insult was intended. I was simply offering up a possible explanation why you thought there was an Eastern influence on our design and menu. Sorry if you took offense.

Back to the invite. No need to fear a friendly tour and tasting nor is there any reason for a mask (or sword for that matter) Mr. Zorro. No hidden chef's knife...just an olive branch in the form of an invite for you to see our operation from the inside out.

I apologize, we remember your post ... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9171&p=86091&hilit=Basa#p86091... which is why I thought you knew who the Ton brothers are. Others made the mistake to think "raw bar" was sushi because of their Asian heritage so no insult was intended. I was simply offering up a possible explanation why you thought there was an Eastern influence on our design and menu. Sorry if you took offense.

Back to the invite. No need to fear a friendly tour and tasting nor is there any reason for a mask (or sword for that matter) Mr. Zorro. No hidden chef's knife...just an olive branch in the form of an invite for you to see our operation from the inside out.

Given my advanced age and the state of my short term memory, it is entirely possible I read and/or perhaps even replied to a post regarding the "Ton Brothers" in another thread...but given I wake up each morning with a whole new set of friends, I have no recollection of said discussion. Not trying to dodge a bullet here...just stating the facts surrounding one of the pre-qualifications for admission into the AARP generation.

Olive brach acknowledged and accepted and sent right back to ya. As I said, we're certainly going to make another visit. If our next experience warrants it, you can be assured I will trip over myself to get to a keyboard and post any positive aspects of our visit.

Wishing you and your staff much success. Over and out.

Considering the OP won for Ribs in MN in 06 and forgot what he posted a month ago, I'll wait to form my own opinions, having lived in Memphis for five years, I'd say I know what good BBQ should be.

Steve P » Fri Jan 29, 2010

Ton Brothers to open Hog and Barrel Saloon

I can't believe you can't remember posting the Ton brothers were going to open a place called Hog and Barrel Saloon over a year ago and that the named changed to Doc Crows.

If you want to see them at their best, go to Basa. One of the best meals I've ever had.

My bad, it was a year ago but I did remember the post. Still yet, I can't believe the food was as bad as described...

Steve P » Fri Jan 29, 2010

Ton Brothers to open Hog and Barrel Saloon

I can't believe you can't remember posting the Ton brothers were going to open a place called Hog and Barrel Saloon over a year ago and that the named changed to Doc Crows.

If you want to see them at their best, go to Basa. One of the best meals I've ever had.

We went for lunch today, and it was quite good. My pulled pork tacos, lima beans, and mac and cheese were great. My lunch companions enjoyed their burger/tacos/po boy (HUGE).

The only complaint - it was slow. I mean, really slow for lunch. We were seated right at noon, placed our order by 12:05, and didn't see any food until almost 12:50. That said, our server was extremely apologietic about the wait and kept refilling our drinks, and they were slammed. Luckily, it was one of those days when none of us had to be back at the office at any particular time.

...see our operation from the inside out.

Brett, time to update your webpage http://www.doccrows.com/
no info about operating hours, etc.

Doc Crows is one of the more unique new places in town and I'm happy to see them add to the downtown foodie scene. We had lunch there last week and it was a mixed experience. Like any restaurant there are going to be rough spots, but it looks like they are off to a promising start.

Background - we're both foodies from the New Orleans area and have been certified BBQ judges for over 10 years.

I had the shrimp/oyster combo po-boy and my wife has the shrimp po-boy. I ordered a bowl of gumbo and dirty rice as a side to my sandwich. Wife ordered slaw as a side.

The gumbo was seasoned well and served over rice. The flavor was authentic and had just the right amount of heat. A bit disconcerting was the large amount of diced carrots in the gumbo. While it didn't hurt the flavor or texture, it certainly is not a conventional ingredient in this classic. Mirepoix is appropriate for other cuisines, but the trinity belongs in gumbo.

The french bread was very good. Just the right amount of crispy crust and soft center. I haven't come across sandwich-size baguettes like this before - we're used to the 3' long loaves -- but they are about as close to authentic as we've come across. I'd love to have a local retail supply of them! We lived in the Evansville area for a while and were able to buy frozed french loaves at a local store. Really miss that!

The seafood was coated with a very light, almost tempura quality, coating. Again, not traditional, but still excellent. Most importantly, the shrimp and oysters were NOT overcooked!

The po-boys are dressed with a light remoulade sauce. It added a slightly sweet and tangy accent. The dirty rice was quite good and made a pleasant addition to the meal.

Service was a bit spotty. The place was not busy -- maybe 10-20% of the tables were occupied. We had to ask for straws for our drinks and received thin bar-style stirrers instead of conventional cold drink straws. They were delivered wrapped in a napkin. Our waitress disappeared a some point and we had to flag down someone else for drink refills and the check.

Pricing is definitely upscale. Our lunch for two with no alcohol was right at $40 plus tip. We'll give them a try for dinner, but really can't justify those prices for what we received in either food or service.

Jim
Not to stir the pot of Gumbo, but being Certified BBQ judges for 10 years, I have to say it's disappointing that you didnt try the BBQ!

Jim
Not to stir the pot of Gumbo, but being Certified BBQ judges for 10 years, I have to say it's disappointing that you didnt try the BBQ!

I thought the same. Why mention you are a judge and then don't critique?